And I encourage men to just create better versions of themselves and to keep everything super local. Focus all of your efforts on the amplification of the individual that you are. Forget about what men need to do more of, what women need to do more of, who are women and who are men—we’re all just individuals.

So that’s the first thing. That first pitfall is thinking too large about the shifts that need to happen. Just work on yourself.

Welcome to the Embodied Relationship Experience. My name is John Wineland. Today, I’m with a dear friend of mine, a man that I respect and love quite a bit. We’ve shared a lot of space together, been in men’s groups together.

You were in one of my first men’s programs. I think it’s about 10 years ago.

Michael:
I was going to say, how long ago do you think that was?

John:
Longer than 10?

Michael:
Oh yeah, it was a while ago.

John:
But I’m here with Michael Holt, and we are going to be discussing the path and the pitfalls of the conscious man—quote-unquote conscious man. What that means from our experience.

Michael is a men’s coach who—you’ve spent lots of time taking men through spiritual masculine spiritual development. I’ll let you kind of give a pitch on what you do, but I think you’re one of the leaders in masculine spiritual practice and teaching men a path to, let’s call it, become more conscious, you know, rather than become more authentic.

Even the word “conscious” is so packed—it means different things to different people. And then I think a lot of guys, they catch wind of this word “conscious,” and they try to stuff a square peg into a round hole. They sacrifice their authenticity so that they can be a conscious man.

Michael:
Yeah, “where I need to do what a conscious man would do.”

John:
And that’s why we came up with this topic—pitfalls of the conscious man—because there’s a lot of traps.

Michael:
Yeah, there’s a lot of traps.

John:
First, just, you know, tell us a little bit about what you do. I don’t want to, you know, kind of read from a bio, so give us the…

Michael:
Yeah, so I’m a men’s work professional. I teach, I have a consulting practice where I work with individuals. I also teach online courses. My most popular course is the Masculine Vitality Program (MVP).

And then I also teach residential men’s retreats. And I guess I’ve entered a very long course of study through these past probably 20 years around meditation, spiritual development, holistic health, martial arts, exercise, polarity, and intimacy work.

I’ve just been able to kind of distill everything into my unique offering, which I call Savage and Saint.

John:
Right on.

One of the things that I’ve always loved about you and one of the things that stands out about you is that you are a man who becomes very masterful at multiple modalities.

I know you’re a very proficient martial artist. I know you’ve studied meditation for over a decade. I know that you and I kind of came through the David Deida world for a while together. And you’ve done quite a bit of work on developing yourself and then offering that to men.

So that’s something that stands out. You know, in a lot of men’s work programs, there are men who take a year or two of training—if that—and then start to teach other men.

Michael:
If that!

John:
If that! And then an individual who learned from a guy who practiced for six months, and you practice with him for three days, and now you’re teaching what he taught you.

Michael:
Yeah, and it’s just…

John:
Yeah.

Michael:
Yeah, I appreciate the compliment, and I do pride myself. I know I have a long way to go. I wouldn’t call myself a master in anything, but I’m engaged in the process of mastery.

I’ve been very fortunate to encounter teachers who are masters in their chosen craft, and so I seek to emulate them.

But yeah, that is something I do have beef with in the men’s work world.

John:
We talked about this a bit. I guess now’s the time to kind of try to flesh this analogy out of MMA. You mentioned that I’m a martial artist.

So everyone knows that MMA is mixed martial arts, which is a combination of striking, grappling, submission wrestling.

But people who only train MMA aren’t that good in striking, grappling, or submission wrestling. It’s the individuals who have a background in striking—Muay Thai, for example—and then they blend that into mixed martial arts who become very dangerous.

Michael:
Yeah.

John:
So I think what’s missing for a lot of men in their approach to men’s work is they don’t have a foundational practice, approach, or skill that becomes the lens through which they see everything.

You just show up, and you’re trying to become a masterful lover, a deep meditator, an entrepreneur—you’re trying to do all of these things, and you’re not very good at any one of them. It really just adds more stress to your life.

Michael:
Yeah.

John:
I think that’s a really good point: that a lot of men don’t put in the 10,000 hours in one modality that can then be built upon.

You need that one pillar that is going to, you know, kind of… I don’t know, just be your North Star, your grounding force. And then everything you can add onto that is a beautiful lens through which you see everything.

So mastery in one thing kind of opens the possibility for mastery in multiple things. But if you don’t have the one thing, then…

Michael:
You’re just treading water.

John:
Yeah.

Michael:
Yeah, yeah.

 

John:
We see this all the time. I think what would be really cool is to just unpack this term “conscious man.” You hear it mainly from women, right?

Women are asking, “Where are all the conscious men?” and trying to tell us what a conscious man is. But I’m curious—you and I have been studying this for a long time—how would you define a conscious man?

Michael:
The first thing that comes to mind is a man who is aware of himself. Meaning, aware of his personal history, his blind spots, his unique traumas and closures.

Aware of his capacity or his tendency to maybe see things in a way that’s not really the way things are. And a man who has engaged the work to overcome a flawed perspective.

John:
Yeah, a man who is aware of himself.

Michael:
It seems like you’re talking about a man who is freeing himself from delusion.

John:
I mean, I don’t think we’re ever free from delusion completely, right? Those are the super-enlightened masters.

Michael:
I think that’s true.

John:
But a man who is freeing himself from the delusion of his personality and his patterns—and aware of something greater than himself—that could be or is the driving force of life itself, right?

Michael:
Yeah, you know, and maybe not even freeing himself, but aware when his patterns are active. Aware that in certain moments or chapters of life, the way you’re seeing things is not the way things are.

The thing that your mind is telling you is true, or the course of action your mind is suggesting you take, is not the most skillful course of action.

John:
So it sounds simple, but it does require a heroic amount of introspection and work to not do the thing that your mind is telling you to do.

Michael:
Yeah.

John:
And so, I would say that’s a good place to start with what is a conscious man.

Michael:
I love that it differentiates itself from this idea of someone who is embodying consciousness in the moment.

John:
Right.

Michael:
Which I teach, and which you teach, I think, in your workshops too. This idea of like, “Okay, to feel consciousness, to feel the expanse of the field of awareness—let’s call it—or however you want to describe consciousness as a meditator, and then to bring it through the body in a moment.”

That is something that we can learn in a day, a weekend, or, you know what I mean, like, to be able to really do that. But that is different than bringing the kind of day-to-day, ruthless, meticulous reflection that you’re talking about—that you get from other men, that you get from teachers, that you get from, you know, sort of deep introspection.

John:
A therapist.

Michael:
A therapist. Yeah.

John:
So you’re describing the path of insight and the path of skillful conduct.

Michael:
Yeah.

John:
Which are not the same path. And so, I think due diligence is required for both because you can be a very skilled meditator with deep realization and be a fountain of wisdom, but you can still be a pretty [expletive] up person.

Michael:
We know those people!

John:
Yeah, we do.

Michael:
I mean, there’s people we know—a lot of those people.

John:
Those people are almost more common than the opposite.

Michael:
Yeah.

John:
You can be in a relationship with a therapist, and you can really understand your stuff, and you can behave well, but you can have no recourse to a deeper kind of perceptual experience.

Michael:
Yeah.

John:
So the path demands both.

Michael:
There’s a quote that one of my teachers, Dustin DiPerna, always says—I forgot who it’s attributed to—but it’s like, “Conduct as fine as barley flour and insight as vast as the sky.”

Like, one without the other just isn’t enough.

John:
Yeah, I think that’s a key point, right? That men who are striving to, you know, just for lack of a better term, become more conscious in the world—become more conscious in their relationships, become more conscious in their own way of living—have to sort of work in this dual path.

And it’s very enlivening to be in the embodiment piece, right? To—what did you call it? Insight?

Michael:
There’s insight, but then there’s the actual skillful conduct.

John:
Skillful conduct, right.

So in my world, skillful conduct is embodiment, or working with sexual polarity, or moving energy, right? It involves the body.

What is the body doing in any given moment? And how skillfully are we navigating a moment with awareness of people around us, right?

Michael:
Sure.

John:
That, I guess, David, my teacher, would call that “yogic,” right? Like, sort of the yogic capacity.

But the insight piece requires so many different—at least in my experience, right?

For me, it’s the insight of recognizing that in any moment I can rest as the infinite expanse of awareness. Right? Any moment I can do that—like that.

But then there’s the piece that you’re talking about, which is trickier, which is like, as I navigate the mind fields of my personality and ordinary life.

Michael:
Yes, in ordinary life and in relationships. We were talking about this earlier, like how the romantic relationship is like the battleground, but it’s also just like spitting up material for us to work with.

John:
Yeah, it’s like the magnet that goes over top of the toys at the carnival—just lifts them up.

Michael:
It’s going to lift up all your stuff.

John:
Good metaphor, yeah.

So if we were going to sort of encapsulate this, it’s like the way…

Michael:
Yeah, let’s simplify it.

John:
So a conscious man—this is the theory that we’re coming to—is paying due diligence to the path of insight, which we could describe as having recourse to a different perceptual experience around self and world, you know, a deeper perceptual experience.

And also someone who is engaged in the practice or the path of behaving more skillfully by examining their unique traumas and blind spots and transcending them.

Michael:
Yeah.

John:
So let me just double-click that for a second because I think that’s really important. How does one do that?

I mean, there’s a lot of different modalities, but let’s maybe dive into some of the modalities that you think are most potent for becoming more aware and gaining keener insight into behavior and what I would call the nature of reality.

Michael:
I don’t think, you know, meditation, prayer, communion, stillness, time spent alone in nature, time spent in quiet—that is the way to kind of relax the tension of the relative self and merge with a deeper experience.

John:
What does one get—I mean, those are solo practices, right? How does one make the leap from being in that kind of solo nourishing reflection to, you know, bringing that into the world? Right? Acting and moving in the world as a conscious human?

Michael:
I think that the perceptual shifts or the insights that emerge through a solo practice become like a fragrance that just kind of wafts around you when you re-engage—time spent with your partner, pursuing your goals as an entrepreneur, or whatever, right?

It just kind of stays with you.

Initially, in the early stages of, let’s say, the practice of meditation, it’s very black and white. “This is my meditation period. I meditate for 30 minutes, and then the bell rings, and then I’m not meditating anymore.”

But Shinzen, one of my teachers—Shinzen Young—would always say that as the practice deepens through the years, there’s a figure-ground reversal.

Where, early stages, your meditation is something that occurs during the course of your day. Later stages, your day kind of unfolds in the container of an unbroken meditative experience.

John:
I’m curious what that looks like for you. I mean, I have my own experience of this.

I’ll speak to mine, and then I’d love to hear yours.

For me, what that means—to bring my meditation into the day, right, and into relating with people—even in this conversation we have right now—there’s a part of me that is aware of awareness.

Right?

As we’re talking, I’m aware of the field of awareness, and in doing that, I’m trying to bring my meditation into the world, into this conversation.

For me, bringing meditation into the day means staying aware of awareness itself. Even during this conversation, I’m aware of the field of awareness. In doing that, I try to bring my meditation practice into the world.

It’s incremental though—improvements filled with failure and recommitment. You forget, you remember, you forget again. Constantly coming back to awareness. The goal is to remain aware of the field through which everything is happening.

You can also feel the stillness and move from it, rather than moving from patterns or habits. That’s how I try to take meditation off the mat and into the world.

The word “forgetting” is interesting. In meditation, you might focus on your breath, then lose track of it while daydreaming. Suddenly, there’s a moment of clarity where you realize you’ve forgotten. You notice and return your focus to the breath. That process of forgetting and remembering happens thousands of times. Over time, you forget less, your attention stabilizes, and it carries over into daily life.

The capacity to notice what you’re thinking, feeling, and how you’re occurring in the world becomes second nature. It’s not effortful—it’s an inevitable consequence of daily disciplined practice. It’s like building muscle in the gym; the strength doesn’t leave you when you walk out the door.

Meditation practice builds awareness, which naturally follows you. As the practice deepens, life changes in ways that are hard to pinpoint. There’s a shift in perspective, in how you experience yourself and the world.

This new perspective often creates spaciousness in your mind. Thoughts feel less personal, and compassion emerges. You begin treating yourself better, not because of self-judgment, but because you’ve created space between thought and awareness. This compassion then ripples outward into how you engage with others.

Shifting from the mind to the body, breathwork becomes essential. Breath connects awareness to the body, amplifying sensitivity and quieting mental chatter. Practices like breathwork, cold exposure, and physical movement amplify both physical vitality and spiritual insight.

Taking care of the body allows for a deeper spiritual experience. If you’re not taking care of your body—eating poorly, sleeping poorly—it becomes harder for consciousness to expand. The body is like a partner; when you care for it well, it allows consciousness to deepen and grow.

This balance between body and mind creates a positive feedback loop. Physical care amplifies meditation, which inspires better care for the body, and so on. Over time, this harmony makes every part of life—cooking breakfast, curating your space—part of the spiritual path.

Through the body, consciousness can also transmit love, devotion, and other qualities. The body becomes a transmitter and amplifier for these attributes. For men seeking to become more conscious, this requires training the body to feel deeply.

There’s no distinction between body awareness and mind awareness—it’s all one field of awareness. However, most men live from the neck up, disconnected from their bodies. Practices like deep breathing, healthy movement, and mindfulness help turn up the volume on bodily sensations while quieting internal commentary.

Taking care of your body and nervous system is crucial. Fitness isn’t just about muscle; it’s about cultivating vitality. Many men are fit but not well. True vitality encompasses the nervous system, emotional health, and holistic care.

Men’s work often falls into extremes—hyper-masculine discipline or overly permissive softness. Neither alone is enough. A balanced approach, integrating both “Savage” and “Saint,” provides the most transformative results.

Pitfalls of men’s work also include striving for identity. Many men chase the idea of being a “conscious man” as a new personality trait, creating a construct rather than dismantling old ones. The path isn’t about becoming something; it’s about making friends with yourself and reality as it is.

The ultimate masculine gift is to be a “yes” to what is. This applies to yourself, your shortcomings, and the complexities of life. Paradoxically, acceptance allows for genuine transformation.

Self-improvement tricks without acceptance only lead to chasing an endless series of problems to fix. True growth arises from balancing relentless pursuit with unconditional self-compassion.

In men’s work, some focus exclusively on discipline and edge work, while others indulge in emotional vulnerability without accountability. True transformation lies in the middle. Both are necessary—discipline to push through resistance and softness to honor what arises.

Real brotherhood isn’t just about sharing vulnerability; it’s about witnessing and supporting each other in deep states of openness and growth. Sharing vulnerability creates connection, but true brotherhood is forged in the shared experience of expansive openness.

Many men approach men’s work from a place of “fixing” something broken. This impulse can be valuable for getting started, but the deeper work is about transitioning to a place of self-awareness and self-love. Half of the men who come into the work are struggling, feeling fundamentally flawed. The other half are high achievers who feel empty despite their success. The path forward is the same for both: balance insight with skillful conduct.

Romantic relationships often serve as the catalyst for men entering the work. They may feel unable to meet their partner’s emotional demands or struggle after a breakup. While self-improvement is valuable, it must be paired with self-acceptance.

The paradox of men’s work is that while you must work tirelessly to grow and improve, it will ultimately only bring you to the present moment. Making friends with yourself and the present moment is the core of the path.

Effective men’s work fosters a palpable shift in state—a new perspective on self and life. It’s not about having a “cool experience” but integrating practices into daily life to create lasting change.

The balance of “Savage and Saint” is key. Relentlessly pursue growth and mastery, but temper it with the deep yes to what is. This agility between tension and relaxation creates true transformation.

The pitfalls of men’s work often arise when men gravitate too far to one extreme—either overly hard or overly soft approaches. A purely hard approach focuses on relentless discipline, edge work, and a hyper-masculine attitude, but it often lacks introspection and compassion. On the other hand, a purely soft approach indulges in vulnerability and emotional release but avoids accountability and necessary growth.

Effective men’s work combines both: the relentless pursuit of self-mastery (Savage) and the unconditional acceptance of self and reality (Saint). This balance allows for a dynamic interplay between tension and relaxation, enabling true transformation.

A common misconception in men’s work is the idea that becoming more conscious means striving for a specific identity. Men often adopt “spiritual man” as a new persona, wearing it like an outfit, instead of dismantling their old constructs. This “spiritual materialism” creates another layer of ego rather than moving beyond it.

The ego often hijacks the process of self-improvement. Men step into practice with sincere intentions, but somewhere along the line, the ego reasserts itself, seeking validation or achievement in the form of being “the conscious man.” True growth comes from piercing through this thin veil of identity and embracing the paradox: striving to improve while accepting that there is no problem to fix.

Many men labor under the delusion that something is fundamentally wrong with them. They engage in men’s work with the goal of fixing themselves, only to find that the pursuit of perfection creates endless new problems to solve. The real shift happens when they learn to fully accept themselves and reality as it is.

Self-improvement remains valuable, but only when it is balanced with self-compassion and acceptance. This creates a foundation for true vitality—physical, emotional, and spiritual. Men’s work done well leads to expanded capacity, openness, and the ability to be present with life as it unfolds.

This principle applies to relationships as well. Romantic relationships often highlight areas where men feel inadequate or unable to meet their partner’s needs. While it’s true that growth and improvement can enhance a relationship, the deeper work is about cultivating presence and authenticity.

Presence is the masculine gift. It’s the ability to hold space for whatever arises, without being swayed or reactive. This applies not just to relationships but to every aspect of life.

A key practice in cultivating presence is awareness training. Most people live unconsciously, allowing their thoughts and emotions to drag them through life. Training awareness—whether through meditation, breathwork, or other practices—helps men place their attention where they want it, rather than being at the mercy of external forces.

Men’s work often involves practices like meditation, breath counting, and mindfulness to stabilize concentration. Concentration is the foundation for deeper spiritual work, as it allows men to focus their minds intentionally and remain present. These simple yet profound practices build the muscle of awareness, enabling men to show up fully in their lives and relationships.

The body plays a crucial role in this process. Many men live disconnected from their bodies, operating solely from their heads. Practices like breathwork and physical movement help men reconnect with their bodies, amplifying their capacity for awareness and presence.

True vitality isn’t just about fitness; it’s about holistic well-being. A healthy body supports deeper spiritual insight, while spiritual practices inspire better care for the body. This positive feedback loop creates a harmonious balance between body, mind, and spirit.

Men’s work also requires integrating these insights into daily life. Peak experiences in a retreat or workshop setting are valuable, but the real transformation happens when men bring these practices into their everyday routines. Consistent daily practice builds the foundation for lasting change.

Brotherhood is another essential element of men’s work. True brotherhood isn’t just about sharing vulnerability; it’s about witnessing and supporting each other in states of openness and growth. Men’s groups provide a space for this shared experience, allowing participants to deepen their capacity for connection and presence.

Ultimately, the path of men’s work is about making friends with yourself and the present moment. It’s about cultivating awareness, compassion, and authenticity while embracing the paradox of striving and acceptance.

Men’s work, at its core, is about making friends with yourself and the present moment. It’s about cultivating awareness, compassion, and authenticity while embracing the paradox of striving for growth and accepting yourself as you are.

The path is not about achieving a fixed state of “consciousness” or embodying an ideal of the “conscious man.” It’s about engaging in practices that balance insight with skillful conduct, pursuing mastery while remaining open to the truth of each moment.

For men seeking to begin this journey, Michael emphasized the importance of starting with simple daily practices like meditation, breath counting, and physical care. These foundational practices build the capacity for awareness and presence, creating the conditions for deeper transformation.

Brotherhood plays a vital role in men’s work. True brotherhood emerges when men support each other in states of openness and growth. This shared experience fosters deep connection and helps men access their authentic selves.

Ultimately, the goal of men’s work is not to fix what is broken but to expand capacity, deepen presence, and live with greater awareness. It’s about balancing the “Savage” drive for growth with the “Saint” acceptance of what is.

As Michael put it, “Relentlessly pursue growth, but also take it easy on yourself along the journey.”

For those interested in exploring this work further, Michael offers a free two-week email course at SavageAndSaint.com. This course provides practices and insights designed to help men build awareness, cultivate presence, and discover whether Michael’s approach resonates with them.

Michael is also active on Instagram (@SavageAndSaint) and hosts regular retreats for men looking to deepen their practice. His next retreat is scheduled for March, with more details available on his website.

This conversation was a deep dive into the nuances of men’s work, and while it may have been a “men’s work nerd out session,” the insights shared are applicable to anyone seeking to live with greater awareness, balance, and authenticity.