dominance is usually focused around control but erotic leadership is about guiding influencing and and inspiring life force energy and being a master of being able to guide influence and Inspire life force energy um can take your partners to really deep levels of um expansion hi welcome back to the embodied relationship experience my name is John weinland I’m your host and I’m here today with the fabulous inch uh we’re going to talk about uh erotic power dynamics which is a a really great title I love that title thank you for that uh and how it plays out in this burgeoning uh Dom subculture that I see um expanding and and Kimmy agreed and so I thought it would be a really interesting conversation to talk about you know what is drawing people into this uh Arena what they’re getting nourished by um you know what uh how the how it’s expanding them just as human beings CU I think there’s probably a lot of that happening as well and so we wanted to take a deep dive and I I I thought of nobody better than Kimmy to uh you know dive into this deep pool of Juicy um erotic play so explain to the people I mean I know what you do right I’ve been to you know one of your you know experiences yeah yeah um uh but please explain to the people you know what you do and what magic is so I am a professional dominatrix uh but I also like to call myself a shamanatrix because I want to take people on Journeys into themselves and to help them access their Internal Medicine which is Eros energy I’m also a sematic therapist and a sex positive edutainer and I like to say I’m a motivational spanker oh as well yeah I’ve seen that in action yeah um yeah I really I I I just right away you talking about this idea of magic you know you don’t normally hear that I mean maybe in your spaces you do but I think out in the you know as people get into this idea of erotic play and one partner being in a dominant position one partner choosing to be in a submissive position you know we tend to think immediately that kind of you know creates charge and immediately there’s sort of like a little like oh which one would I like to be or you know uh but but I love this idea of of um looking at it through a shamanic lens because I I I imagine and I’ve I’ve sort of seen this in my own journey and my own practices and I’ve seen it in your space that it really does kind of become this um field like a shamanic field right that people are just being able to access deeper parts of their magic and so I’m I’m curious if you could just expand on that a little bit what you’ve seen and how you know so people aren’t just coming to it because they want to get off or they want to um uh I don’t know they they want to play and power dynamics there’s something deeper happening oh absolutely and it’s it’s great you know Kink is essentially being turned on by the taboo so there’s an inherent thrill and excitement when we engage in taboo activities but as the shamanatrix that I am I’m not just playing with regular Kink I’m playing with something called conscious Kink and so the elements of conscious Kink are very similar except it also includes the idea of Consciousness just like the title um suggests also intention and embodiment so you’re right like we can come together have a little slap and tickle you know a lot of people experiment with King when they’re already in the act of sex like maybe someone is having sex and the girl says to the man like you know just choke me and I’m going to call you Daddy now and the guy’s like oh okay you know not a lot of conversation about it same thing goes in the opposite direction maybe a couple’s in doggy style and all of a sudden the man starts spanking her ass and saying like you know who’s your daddy right right so that’s all good and well and lots of fun I have no um problem with that but when it comes to using it in a sham shamanic form it’s like how do we bring this into Consciousness and tension and embodiment because we can actually uncover a lot about ourselves learning about ourselves and our partners through imagination and creativity in the erotic space which I think is is a huge component of playing with the erotic in power dynamics it’s like how do we activate our imagination and how do we meet each other um on this level where we might be able to create a scenario where we dive into what’s going on in our lives it’s almost like a snapshot into the relationship a snapshot into the relationship with each other with ourselves and with life as a whole yeah I found that to be true as well like I I teach a lot of taboo and um and I’ve always found that the areas where people are kinked up in their taboo tend to be the areas in their lives that are kind of kinked up as well right all connected it’s so true and how fun is it to like get curious around not just what we want in our lives but what’s in the way of what we want and can we bring those elements into a play Space where we are consciously collaborating with each other around what it could look like and what do we want to feel and explore and see if we can create an opportunity for what we call in Kink a Subspace Dom space it’s just these expanded uh euphoric you know um like transcendental States Of Consciousness where we can actually step outside the regular routine and image of who we are and step into something radically different so we can have a shift in perspective and how to deal with life right so I was thinking like how would you define and I’ll ask you this in a second but I was thinking how would you define you know erotic power play and what came to me as you were talking was just like the the freedom in having all the power and then having none of the power and what that actually does to people’s nervous systems you know what I mean there’s a I’ve see I see it in my workshops I’m sure you’ve seen it in yours um but but let’s just zoom back a little bit and zoom out and talk about for somebody who doesn’t know a lot about power iro power dynamics or doesn’t know about what you know what does it mean to be a do dominant or what does it mean to be submissive so maybe you could just give like a oh yeah you know tutorial for us and you know a lot of people have heard these terms dominant and submissive and there’s an idea of what are the designs of energy that are at play between two parties so in the sense of Dom sub somebody is assuming the power while the other is relinquish relinquishing the power um now that’s a beautiful uh beginner step in how you can explore erotic play however I like to think that that also tends to be very hierarchical so in the terminology that I use in my shamanic practices is more erotic leader and erotic follower I like to feel like the erotic is a dance between two parties and these components are necessary where each can be masterful and each or needed to create the dance but an erotic leader is different than a dominant person because dominance is usually focused around control but erotic leadership is about guiding influencing and inspiring ing life force energy and being a master of being able to guide influence and Inspire life force energy um can take your partners to really deep levels of um expansion and again I was mentioning the Doms um Dom space and Subspace again as those Altered States Of Consciousness where people yes they feel an immense amount of pleasure but they also feel a Oneness with God they also feel unconditional love they also um are expand in ways that they don’t feel in their 9 to-5 jobs and they get to like let go of those roles where they can step into something else you know as kids we used to make believe and and play all the time and I think it’s a little tragic that we lose that level of creativity and Imagination um bringing that into the bedroom helps us Flex muscles around being creative around showing up with what is but it also helps us step into ideas of what surrender means like we can talk about surrender all day but when do we get to practice surrender I can say to you like I feel like I have been you know kind of in my control freak would you TI me up right and like relinquish like actually put me in a situation where I have no choice but to let go CU I’m completely immobilized and you’re guiding me through an experience where I can just open and exist and be and then maybe when I really feel that viscerally in my body I can bring that into my work life I can bring that into my daily life and remember oh I do have the capacity to let go I do have the capacity to trust myself it feels really good when I can do it so good exactly exactly so the dominant sub um you know dynamic is a really classic idea of what polarity is same thing with you know feminine and masculine and these are just polarities that create the amount of tension that can create that electricity and that and that draw now throw in the the taboo then you get a little bit of elements of um shame and the ooh the naughtiness like these are the things we’re not supposed to be doing where people you know can struggle with it if you’re not conscious enough about how to hold it but it can actually create a lot of thrill there’s this um quote I love by John Waters he’s a famous director and he says I’m so glad I was born Catholic because sex will always be dirty for me and it’s like let’s Embrace these elements of like o we picked up our shame from somewhere we’re not supposed to be doing these things you you bring that in with Consciousness and it’s just electricity and that’s what releases these chemicals that create the Altered States Of Consciousness that we’re striving for in the first place and we’re living under still living under such a deep you know old shadow of uh you know fundamental Christianity right I mean it’s really not that long in terms of human history where you know we’re puritanism was a thing right so totally we have all this sort of pent up energy I think yeah man has kept me in business but like thanks for Christianity it’s so great too um so so yeah and I I love the I love that you mentioned polarity because that’s my that’s my game right and and and I and I think that people are craving it right that there has been like over the last 50 years like we’ve drifted towards the sameness right you know for good reasons right you know feminism and Men feeling more but but the byproduct of that is that we drifted into this sort of energetic sameness and I think that people are starting to realize like oh [ __ ] we you know for us to have the kind of what you’re talking about the kind of charge the kind of ecstatic experiences where we we be we can fully surrender we need to get really conscious about creating spaces where polarity will Thrive totally and and and that’s you know what keeps me in business and I think probably leads a lot of people to you I’m I’m curious because you’ve been in the space for a while I’m I’m just curious over the last say say 10 20 years how you’ve seen it develop oh yeah I’m sure it’s I’m sure it’s gone through this whole sort of elevation of consciousness I know that’s your thing but but I’m wondering just in general how have you seen it you know develop Blossom grow oh yeah you know I started working as a dominatrix in 2002 and at the time I had this idea that I was going to get you know paid to be a professional mean person and get paid to tell people what to do and be treated like a queen and um you know when I started doing deep inner work on myself and starting to um come to realization that wow these spaces these erotic spaces are just beautiful opportunities for healing and depth and connection where people can be fully expressed because so often we hold a lot of Shame around our desires quite often we don’t know where they came from and and and a lot of the mythology around that is that it comes from our traumas and I don’t necessarily subscribe to that line of thinking I do think however our desires and F fantasies come from The Impressions that we’ve had growing up around intimacy sex and relationships sort of like the narratives that were imposed Upon Us Versus not necessarily trauma but like like Catholicism right or you know yeah you know we’re talking about the narratives of being a good girl and what it means to be a good girl and good boy and I love like listen I have a praise Kink all day but I also really love validation and I can see how they’re connected in a lot of ways but when I get that itch scratched really well in an erotic space then it doesn’t feel as much of a charge or pull on me when I’m out into the real world or the default world if you will and I start to feel like oh I actually had an an an encounter with a play partner where maybe he tied me up maybe he took me through some impact play and I can feel in my brain that I’m having a connection with someone where I’m being witnessed which already creates an important um significance in the subconscious because the subconscious is thinking to itself like this is unique this is a unique situation I’m going to pay my comfort zone exactly and perhaps he’s feeding me the the praise of like I’m a good girl like I’m doing he’s so proud of me he’s really impressed by me things like that and I’m receiving stimulus that’s intense at the same time so there’s something happening neurologically where it’s starting to rewire my brain it’s starting to rewrite my belief system and when we’re able to like really hold those Concepts that this could be so much more than a bunch of orgasms it could also be healing it can also be empowering and we get to have orgasms as well like what’s better than that like that’s why this is my favorite way of healing is through the erotic you know yeah I’m curious maybe you could just because I don’t think it’s been spoken about a lot like what is the neurological you the way that I would I I would describe this at least in my work is that taking people to edges opens up new channels of neural possibilities right so it’s like it’s in that it’s in that kind of hanging out in as much of a relaxed but open space of edge whatever that is um that you just your nervous system capacity expands but I’m curious you know neurologically what what happens in those spaces because I think that’s what you’re talking about 100% like you know a lot of our trauma happens in our relational experiences it doesn’t usually happen in a vacuum by ourselves there’s something that happens in a relational Dynamic that creates the trauma which is felt in the body so it is so important that we go beyond the cognitive and we go beyond the cerebral and we actually have interactions with other people because it’s through human contact where those shifts can really start to happen it’s the replacing the negative relational experiences with positive relational experiences if I suffered um uncons um corporal punishment in my home spankings you know when you’re a naughty kid you get spankings and things like that and maybe you’re told that you’re bad um if I can replace that experience with someone that I trust when I’m in a safe space and I feel like I’m um open in my nervous system I can have a recreation of receiving that kind of interaction but it’s a it’s it’s registering as completely different the context is completely different right and I’m reclaiming that story around um who I am and and what my purpose is in the world and it’s through that human connection which is absolutely necessary to make changes in our brains is that you know books are great and you know podcasts are great and we can be inspired by that but it’s really feeling it through the relational experience and having a different experience that creates a a new understanding of like updating the the system almost it’s like I need to update my processing system with this information because the other um information is outdated and I have a really expansive experience to solidify that as truth now as opposed to what it was when I was a kid you know what I mean so it’s almost like you have to create these really Dynamic big highly intensive like erotic experience it doesn’t always have to be erotic but it has to be something that’s so profound that your brain is like really paying attention to it and it’s I’m just thinking about the the dynamic there where where where as a kid getting spanked and you’re a bad girl or bad boy literally to a child’s brain means death totally it means like I am so the actual the the the Arc of that the difference the contrast of what what it meant when you were a kid to be spanked and said you’re bad and what it means when you’re in a situation where somebody who’s loving you totally and doing it it’s just such a massive contrast and I and I and I’ve seen this too in my work where where people rewire these things because they get to you know sort of revisit that experience in the way that you just described I had this woman she was a interior designer and she came because she hadn’t had an orgasm in years and she was really struggling to feel that kind of pleasure in her body despite the vibrators and the attentive lovers she was not able to experience orgasm she came to see me and wanted to experience some power Dynamic play she wanted to experience surrender and we got really clear on the boundaries and desires but I went a little further with it and I got curious around like what were your initial Impressions around sexuality and she had shared that you know when she was little she would rub herself against the pillows and she would her body would feel amazing and it was like the best Discovery ever until her mom would catch her her mom would catch her straddling these pillows rubbing herself against them and she would get punished she would get spanked she would get isolated and I you know locked that information away in the back of my mind and I thought you know I wonder if there’s a place for us to maybe play with this a little bit and you know we created a scene together and as I was bringing her through an experience I had her tied to a four poster bed where her knees were tied apart she was kneeling on the bed and her arms were um tied apart and I started shoving pillows underneath her her legs and I started you know telling her to rub yourself against these pillows and her face was like oh my gosh what’s happening and so she started doing it and I said I want you to listen really carefully you are so beautiful Your Body deserves to feel good your body is designed for pleasure I’m so sorry that you weren’t supported here but you are so loved in this place and your pleasure is beautiful and she just had like you know crying and orgasms and just like had a full body experience of shaking where she was just releasing this old programming and this old information that no longer was current anymore and those are the scenarios that I get really excited to explore because it can be that deep and meaningful when we think about how do we create new information and new experiences for the body to feel because the body doesn’t lie but our brains are giving it information just like we give chat gbt information it’s going to spit out what we give them as prompts but our brains are giving our bodies prompts all the time around like victimhood and around limit like SC and things like that so how do we make sure that we’re upgrading that information so it’s giving the body the new information that’s really going to serve us and in creating the life that we want yeah yeah that’s really beautiful let’s take one break take a second take a break for a second it’s great yeah is it okay yeah good and take a drink of water um I think I think I’d like to go into like what makes a good Dom or good sub I’ll WP let’s wrap up the taboo piece because I think the taboo has been is really is really important as well I love the that idea yeah MH okay um so I oh I’ll wait till you’re ready sorry I’m ready um and cut um um so this idea of like setting up taboo scenes to heal our you know childhood patterning sometimes childhood traumas um that’s traumatic to be the story you gave about being caught masturbating and then shamed for it that happens more than once that could be considered a trauma and I think we all sort of have these I remember getting caught oh man do I want to share this on a podcast okay I’ll share so when I was I don’t know sixth grade or something like that I’m just kind of I’m 12 right I’m just like I’m discovering it and I got and and I and for some reason the doors in our bathroom were were off the Stalls but I was like it’s in between classes I’m just going to go for it and I’m in there and a guy one of my friends walks in and catches me literally by the end of the school day it was all over the school wow that you know John was jerking off in the bathroom and D D D D oh no oh yeah I mean I’m not sure maybe there’s there’s a scene for that wow you know um but but um but yeah and I and I and I think the way that we get shamed around discovering our sexuality um lodges in US kind of like very few things do and this idea you know this taboo practice that we’re talking about and I you know taboo day in my programs is like one of my it’s like Christmas for me you know because you get to see all these people popping and and having these very deep emotional experiences and and sort of rewiring things and and I I wonder for those who are at home like they’re okay we’re in a relationship like I’m not quite sure like how do you get people over the hump because I I found that you know you hold a very tight container I’m sure what you do where you know people come to you and you say I’m going to lead you in this way and they they say okay I’m going to trust you same thing happens in my programs but for people at home who are just trying to kind of expand this range of of how do I how do we start to get into little more taboo territory do you what what would you suggest for oh yeah the the the you know people at home or the people who haven’t you know they’re they’re not the erotic cosmonauts that you and I you know it’s interesting because quite often I hear a lot of people say well when I find the partner then I’m going to start exploring the side of myself and I’m like no like don’t don’t wait like there is so much richness here and there’s you know a lot of resources online of course but I think really sitting with self and getting curious around what do I want to experience you know I have something called the king checklist which is a just a list of possibilities and invitations and going through something like that by yourself first and noticing what comes up in the body when I read something like oh spanking what does this feel expanded in my body or do I feel a little contracted oh you know Tantra like and getting curious around these invitations and noticing what’s showing up and starting first with the the ideas and things that are expansive that feel really fun oh I love the idea of being tied up or I love the idea of a little dirty talk and using more verbal skills um and somebody you know telling me I’m a good girl or or maybe maybe it’s rougher maybe it’s a little bit of rougher language and starting to dive into that Curiosity while simultaneously connecting to the body and noticing what’s happening here um often times like I said you know people get a little Swept Away in what it’s supposed to look like they they imagine the most Sensational like extremes that you can think of with the hooks and the chains and the you know swimming pool of Loop and there’s a [ __ ] and I don’t know like it just people’s minds go really in all these interesting directions but it’s really so subtle in these energies again the the designs of energy of feeling into where does my um body expand with different concepts and ideas you know how can I get the pinky toe and the shallow end of the pool before feeling like I have to dive in with my eyes closed and if I’m in a partnership the the opportunity is like hey can we set up a date where we’re going to have a you know intentional conversation around desires and around Curiosities cuz I want to be able to you know be all parts of myself with with my partner and I want to be in the Curiosity of it and how do we explore this in a conscious way that feels good in our bodies and we can titr trate that through the conversation of like you know this is just a conversation that we’re just going to talk about it nothing has to happen and maybe the next step after talking about some desires and boundaries is like let’s lay together and hold each other and maybe describe what a scenario could look like like it could be like oh you come home from a long day of work and I sit you down in a chair and I tell you I’m going to take care of you baby you don’t have to worry about anything and I take off your tie and I actually use it to tie your hands behind the chair but I’m not going to do anything emasculating I want to just like let you know that you can just sit back and relax and let me you know Dazzle you a little bit and I’m going to do a strip tease and so I could be sharing that with my partner and he can let me know like ooh that felt good when you said that ooh when you said the thing about tying my hands back M my body didn’t like that one okay no problem let’s keep leaning into the [ __ ] yeserg and let’s just start there and then as we continue to play and grow together then we might get a little curious about the things that were the [ __ ] maybe and the [ __ ] knows and we start to feel like a little more confident in ourselves and each other to expand to something that might be a little more extreme but we start at the real basic thing and we trust the body’s information I love this point about using language and just visualization yeah to start the journey that was that’s how that’s how it started to work for me right because I think a lot of men you know don’t quite know how to talk dirty right they’re like I’m going to say the wrong thing or she’s going to get mad or you know if I call her a dirty little [ __ ] I’m going to get slapped and but wait she kind of liked it and it’s it’s very it’s very confusing for men um to figure out how to um use language because language is so crucial so I love this idea of you know not just jumping into a scene but actually yeah let’s let’s talk about it and be really clear what feels good or something that I’ve seen work very well is let’s you know during just regular love making you know let me just try to use a little language and see if it something shifts in her like something opens in her right and then I know like okay this is a thread I want to pull on but I love this idea for those of you at home right of talking about talking about dirty scenes dirty scenes talking about you know like kinky stuff and seeing what lights up in your body first before you just you know take the leap in and put on the you know the [ __ ] outfit or whatever it is yeah why I love a lot of the workshops that you do is that you create really clear containers so this is also just another opportunity for a couple to say okay the container is a discussion next step is the container is an experiment like we’re just going to experiment see what sticks and what doesn’t stick and like you know let me know so I can collect the data um quite often to be a good Dom it’s like like really having the road map like where do I begin like how do I make this all fit together um so collecting the data is really good in knowing where do I start like how do I get the ball rolling here and again I I say start with the [ __ ] yeses like if there’s anything that you’re considering trying that’s a or a you know like nah just leave that for now like just lean into the [ __ ] yeses and then maybe the next container that the Dom the the person leading the experience can set as like okay we’re going to actually just play for 20 minutes and and we’re going to focus on these three aspects and then we’re going to see what happens and like continuing to tie trate especially if a partner is hesitant or a little nervous about these Explorations it might be good to continuously set the containers so that you can continue to check in with yourselves and and discuss like what what’s working what’s not working and be collaborative and teammates about it as opposed to feeling like it’s always on one person’s shoulders versus the other so it’s like how do we be a team in this and work on this together yeah yeah you know it’s such a um the reason why I love that those kinds of scenes because it is like I said so naturally polarizing when you think about what what I would say makes a good Dom in any moment it’s awareness it’s sensitivity it’s presence it’s command like it’s like you know I mean all of those things right totally and beautiful sacred masculine experience and what would make a beautiful Sub in my experience is expression responsiveness openness receptivity like you just all of those things that are super feminine and this is not as you know very well gender specific totally absolutely not gender specific but one partner is really you know the definition that David used to say that makes really good polarities one partner releases their masculine and just really makes a conscious decision to just embody and you know experience the feminine aspects and vice versa and those scenes really create a beautiful way for people to do that and so I think that’s part of the reason why it’s happening so you know there I mean I see so much more of it on you know social media and you know so many more people that I’m meeting but not a lot of people who’ve been in since 2002 right yeah so so yeah let’s just let’s just jump into like what what does make a good Dom and a good sub in any sort of experience be let me let me just preface this a little bit because I see people like they they can set up a a a beautiful scene even a pretty detailed scene but they don’t actually H the embodied capacity to live into it but maybe maybe it takes multiple times but I’m just curious like how how do you get people out of the roleplay like I get this complaint all the time like yeah we set up a role play but then he was like really tentative and then so I couldn’t surrender and you know what I mean totally and so how do you you know how do you get those things to really drive it’s no it shows up all the time because I mean look at the images that we’re learning from like the stereotypes and this generic idea of what Dom sub Dynamics look like it’s like you know it feels pretty you know two-dimensional it doesn’t have a lot of depth and and possibility there so you listed some great components of um leadership for example the presence the accountability but also the surrender like how do I you know hold the balance of creating a container and having a structure but also being able to trust whatever’s showing up and being in a surrendered state to what is showing up and then also to maybe the higher power who’s influencing my movements if you believe in those sort of things or my higher self that is influencing my movements um let’s just let me let me double click that for surrendered as a Dom yes that that’s great so you just like can you dilate that can I share a little story that illuminates this a little bit so I had this couple I was working with they’d been together for about 15 years and had a really good relationship but their their sex life was pretty stale and they were looking of ways to kind of you know spice things up and so they called me they let me know that when they would explore the power Dynamic of up she wanted him to be more dominant he wanted her to be more submissive they just could not get it right and they didn’t know what was going on so I said let’s play like let’s just get in the room let’s play I’m going to co-lead with the man so he can watch what I’m doing and I can watch what he’s doing and we can get some more information there so at a particular point in the scene we had the woman on a spanking bench cuz she loves impact play she wanted a spanking so the man is giving her a spanking as I overlook uh the scenario and she starts to interject like can you go slower that’s that’s too hard actually no no no a little harder than that though wait can you like rub in between you know just like interjecting and I can see him like you know getting really annoyed and he’s not connected to her anymore so I call a timeout and I said you know like what’s going on for you and he’s like well this always happens she takes my power and she’s topping from the Bott and she says she wants me to Dom but she’s like doming me like isn’t it my way and she’s like you know well how are you going to know what I like if I don’t tell you and I you know my voice matters and this and that and so I’m like okay guys you know let’s hold on a second so I say to him I’m like listen what was your intention for doing this let’s go back to that he’s like my intention was to be in pleasure and to be in connection with my partner and to have fun and to trust the process and I’m like okay like do you feel like that’s what you’re doing and he’s like no I’m pretty pissed off actually and I’m like okay so I think that there’s a belief system happening here where you think she’s taking your power but that’s not possible cuz innate power can only be given it can’t be taken and you’re giving your power away to her because she’s not showing up the way you want her to show up she’s not just like oh Master yes whatever you know like she’s kind of giving you a little you know push and pull and you’re getting into a power struggle with her so you’re giving your power away immediately in that scenar be her unconscious test yeah right anyway right I’m going to be Brady and see if this him can take it and it did it did he took the bait and so but she was funny cuz she’s like yeah see you know and I’m like no [ __ ] hold on a second like you keep saying how you want him to lead and to dominate you but you’re not making any space for him in fact I’m curious if there’s some trust issues going on here and there’s something there’s something happening it’s a snapshot into the relationship so I said like what else could you have done like is there anything else you could have done besides getting your ego a little bruised and and he’s like I guess I could have called a timeout and just said hey something’s not feeling right here um you know let’s talk about it I’m like totally or you could have said you know like oh you have a lot to say don’t you miss like why don’t you lift your head up I want you to look me in the eyes and I want you to say all the things say all the things you think you need to say and when you’re done put your head down take a deep breath and know that I’ve got you do you understand and he’s like oh and she was like oo and then he’s like I guess I could have also put something in her mouth and I was like like sounds like somebody needs a ball gy and she was like oh yeah yeah or something else in the mouth who knows but yeah ball gy could could have been um or maybe he’s just spanking her and tell and saying like oh I love your voice what else what else what else what else what else until she’s worn the [ __ ] out you’re not Shook at all and you’re completely connected to her and you know they were really surprised to hear like oh yeah there there’s a something coming into the space and there’s thousands of strategies that I can meet this situation but instead of Leaning into AOS I’m leaning into ego and ego’s taking me out of the intention so how do I lean back into the intention cuz you know saying like uh she’s taking my power but like think about how this happens to us on a daily basis like someone says something to you and maybe doesn’t feel good and your ego gets a little ruffled instead of like you know trusting in yourself and maybe you could play off of that and a little friendly banter back and they’re like oh hey you know and happens all the time it’s a little tussle T let’s play we’re [ __ ] playing here like oh you this is what’s showing up all right I’m going to play with this not get pissed off because it’s this you know what I mean and so to me the leadership and the followership is like really becoming aware of our strategies and and how do we connect to Aeros which is all about curiosity and embodiment and intention and flow and play and and unlimited possibility as opposed to ego which is going to be you know it’s especially the male ego right and and but I didn’t want to say it but yeah no it’s true but but but the way that I’ve always seen this concept play out is that whoever’s directional is exerting their masculine right so whoever’s whoever’s expressive is exerting their feminine so if you are wanting to be submissive and in the feminine then is there a way and maybe this is something that can be negotiated ahead of time like rather than you tell me what to do you express good or bad like you know means no not like that ah means yes more like that and then we find you know and you give me a little space to find thing and right so having the can having those kinds of Dynamics worked out consciously because you know they’re going to be there cuz they’re in the relationship all the time anyway maybe helps I mean I’ve seen that I’ve seen that be really helpful yeah but this idea you know I see this a lot and it’s a v it’s a totally valid question women ask I mean I’m little diversion here but I I see this question from women a lot like how how can I let him know what I like and what I don’t like like MH and I’m and I Al I I say well you can direct him but just know that now you’re meeting the masculine with your masculine right option right or you can just get really you could amplify the expression of yes or no in some way yeah just like that baby or uh right he’ll get it he’ll get it you know you know he’s looking for cues to serve you right you know isn’t it so hard when your partners are silent in your life happening are you okay like totally but wow so so this idea of of what makes a a beautiful Dom and a beautiful sub and you were going to you were expanding on this idea of surrender right like what what what what showing up with whatever is coming through like in that moment like getting surrender for in this in this in this experience surrender is being surrendered to the flow of something not you that is either love or I would call it love right love pleasure rather than your agenda on how to get her off or to get her off or how to exert your power like that’s what you would consider surrender from a Dom so much so because think about improv for example improv is [ __ ] magical because you’re like what’s going to happen but whatever it is like we’re going to meet it and we’re going to [ __ ] be a [ __ ] yes to it and we’re going to see what magic arises from the [ __ ] yes of it right instead of like oh no no do it like this instead like let’s make it different um and yeah these are components that I think are really interesting I also want to say when it comes to novice Doms they get a Fixit like a fixated idea of what it’s supposed to look like and so when it comes to dance like let’s take Tango for example like you know usually a man is leading the woman in this Tango experience and they’re both really um expressive in different ways but there might be a moment where the woman you know smacks the man on the face or like shows a little how about now like you know energy and when it comes to really evolving into Master the lines of like Dom and sub can get a little blurry sometimes because there’s just so much flow happening at all times and being able to like flow with that could be so expansive because we’re not in this rigidity of like no no no wait I’m the Dom and I have to always be in charge of everything no my my sub might push back on me and then what am I do and then she might go right back into the surrender again but like creating scenarios where we can allow all things to show up is going to be so much more fulfilling and and actually real cuz when we think about Dom sub it’s not real like and what I mean by that is like I’m not really dominating you you could you could pull out of this any time you want and I’m you know submit submitting is like I I think surrender is a nicer term like I am surrendering to you and to myself and to the moment but I have to be able to trust myself too in order to do that if I’m going to be a good sub what is the inner work I need to do on myself to trust myself because when it comes to Kink again like those Dom space Subspace expanded euphoric states that we can achieve is iing on the cake but the cake is trust and relationship skills and communication skills and being able to really see each other and in our fullness and who we are like that that’s the cake of it um and having all of it is a big part of having that fulfilling sex life that I hope spills out into all areas of Our Lives yeah I was thinking as you were talking like the things again this thing that would make really good Doms and Subs right but yeah to me the number one enemy is thinking oh my gosh you’re so overthinking right so so the moment that you are thinking what’s my next move you’ve already lost the plot totally um or versus intuiting right and where your focus is right like so what I’ve seen so many so many times and is is that as you start to focus on them on love let’s just use love as a higher power like let’s just say love like whether you’re in a loving relationship just you can still give love and so love and sensitivity and intuition are the tools right for being able to ride the wave like you’re talking about it and thinking and predetermined agendas you know are prends to be the you know the blockages and um and would you say it it works the same way for someone who’s in a surrendered position in a submissive uh position same thing yeah quite often I feel like um because I I have these 10 principles of erotic leadership that incorporates a lot of what you just mentioned the uh presence and heart and surrender and accountability and just all of these elements but it really does go both ways you know it is um a component where people who in the follower is not a passive role like it’s very active and it’s very contributing and I get actually a lot of men and women sometimes saying like oh the reason um I don’t play as much is because as the Dom I have to do everything and I’m like you’re not doing it right my loves like I like to use instead of Dom and sub I like to use artist and Muse that’s good like right right as the sub or follower I can also be the Muse and the source of inspiration and embodiment and expression like you were mentioning that fuels the flame of my artist’s desire and creativity and like my ACT um or my role as a the follower or sub is very much important and contributing to the the outcome of the scenario I like to think of that in terms of the energy and the direction right like so if someone is you know is in the dominant position they’re they’re consciously holding the masculine they’re consciously like attuning for the direction of where we’re going to go how deep we’re going to go right we need to have that sort of weather you know like a sailor on the sea needs weather if not there’s no weather the boat just sits there right so that weather that that you would provide from the bottom right is really what powers the depth and this you know I don’t want to say speed but just you know the direction um and I think I think people I think women in particular you know are still have a lot of Miss message mixed messages I’m sure you have to unpack a lot um and men too like you know I’ve noticed that there’s so many men that love being in submissive roles so maybe maybe you could just talk about like what what are the what are the blockages and you know what are the tools that someone who wants to surrender more can surrendering is so good like it really is you know it’s nice to especially if you’re in a daytoday situation where that’s not always Possible having um some time car out to experience it is so nice and I actually work with a lot of dominant men and um as someone who’s a switch myself I’m both you know submissive and dominant myself when I approach a dominant man I’m not interested in humiliating or emasculating him per se I’m interested in him being in a state of beingness for a period of time and I even use like a lot of Storytelling like I’ll say you know imagine that you know it’s back in the ancient times and you’ve been at War and you’re coming back home after the war is over before returning to society you’re going to stop at the priestesses uh where the at the temple where the priestesses are and I’m the Priestess I’m going to actually strip off your armor literally but also energetically strip off the armor that was built up from the years of being at War and being disconnected from your heart and I’m going to use these different tactics to help you return home to your heart again and it might include bondage it might include some impact play and some intense um interactions it might include love making it could include a lot of different things but the the intention is to help you return home to yourself and to remind you that you are loved and appreciated for who you are not always for what you do and giving men an experience of that especially very dominant powerful men oh my gosh like the the release that can be received and they get back into their hearts and they get back into their power again and then they’re like no I’m going to throw you over my shoulder and like yes you know cuz I love like I don’t when I play I love to kind of go back and forth like I like to do that dance like let me lead you a little bit here and then you lead me and um and I feel like the more evolved people are in their healing and where they are in their evolution the the um being really rigid and how energy flows is is loosened up a bit and we can actually do that dance we much more it’s so true and and and relationships get fed and nourished much more deeply in fluidity like I one of the one of the issues that has sort of come from my teachers work is that men tend to think they always need to be in the masculine women and think we and and if if there’s any deviation from that there’s somehow somebody’s doing something wrong either I’m doing something wrong or she’s doing something wrong and I think that that is dissolving thank the Lord right totally you know as you were talking I taught this I I I taught it I teach at Bernie man almost every year and I I taught the thing on what I thought would be sacred dominance and submission and to me and you’ve kind of already touched on this so I think we’re on the same page here but to me what makes a really deep uh uh dominant um erotic play is that I can Intuit it because I’m so locked into you because I’m so in love with you because I’m so grounded because I’m so in my body I can Intuit it what you need that you might not even know you need it might not have even been discussed in our boundaries right not might not you know what I mean right and and that that capacity to actually now and this you know of course this is an art like dancing right I think the Tango is perfect like you’re not going to step on the floor and like rip you know in a Tango class you know your first time right this is an art like in all great Arts right you have to cultivate it you have to spend time on the map you know you have to like practice all these things um and and so this capacity to feel what’s needed is such a a beautiful I think skill that that many relationships never even attempt to go to probably for the right reason because they would use their agendas to say what’s needed versus their connection to the moment but I’m I’m curious how that how you would see that reciprocal of that in somebody in the submissive position like 100% H how how are they feeding their partner spiritually in their surrender I love that you brought in the intuition for me as one of the principles that I’ve been mentioning one is Attunement and Attunement is a huge component for I think all successful relationships ever like I really do think like if you’re having an expansive erotic session with someone and it feels so good atun it usually boils down to the level of Attunement that’s happening and it’s the holding the me and we simultaneously while using discernment to honor both and as someone who’s in follower role that Attunement is also important because I’m in like I’m attuning to what’s happening in my body because I I love the idea of being able to read minds but on a certain level as the follower I have a responsibility to myself and my partner as well to be honest and transparent with what’s working what’s not working or what I’m experiencing um and sometimes that can be challenging to verbalize when we’re in an expanded erotic state but that’s why the Attunement process is an ongoing thing it doesn’t just happen in the beginning and then at the end it’s something that’s happening simultaneously so as someone who’s in the follower it’s important that I have opportunity to attune to my partner during middle and end because otherwise um I’m not really staying connected to them and for me I want to be in connection with my partner would would it be something like if I was just thinking if if my goal was as a as a sub in a moment yeah to expand my partner’s capacity just in in the direction that they’re going whatever it is like I want to feel them Fuller I want to feel them wider I want to feel them more present um how would I do that yeah if that’s my intention no it’s such a good it’s a good question because we can easily become erotically drunk in these scenarios and because there’s an intoxication that’s happening like we’re not sober anymore when we’re drunk as [ __ ] on Aeros energy but the idea of where an individual is at in their own Comfort levels of themselves is going to be showing in the play session so you’re right like being able to be fully expressed and and in the freedom and wildness and and unlimited possibility of what you’re feeling and experiencing is going to be such an important part for your leader to experience like that expression and the embodiment of that Aeros energy cuz it’s enlivening it’s it’s inspiring all of these things but you know as someone who’s in the leadership position I also have to kind of remember that on some level I also need to be a little bit of the designated driver in the scenario and like you know and not to you know rain on anyone’s parade but these erotic spaces are messy as [ __ ] like they really are like you know one night we could be playing and you tickled me in one way and I had the best orgasm of my life and you could do the exact same thing next week and I somehow got triggered into my worst like you know childhood memory of being you know forced to be tickled and that’s what happens in these spaces so I think like before even going into it with somebody both parties being like I’m on board to buy this ticket to this roller coaster ride and there’s going to be ups and downs and there’s going to be some surprises but it’s worth the thrill of the ride and that’s why we [ __ ] do this is to have an experience of that thrill of that aliveness um of that life force energy because when we learn that we have this within our bodies we start to learn that we don’t need anything outside of ourselves like if anything as a leader I don’t want to do a bunch of [ __ ] to my partner I want to actually help my partner maybe love themselves more or feel themselves more or feel more trust in the universe like these are the the concepts find something they didn’t even know they have exactly exactly and and be able to lead them in that in that direction ction and then also after the play it’s really important to have a debrief session to really share like once the dust has settled and maybe we’re a little more sober uh having the follower really uh Express like what’s working what’s maybe uh needs a little love maybe needs a little attention because maybe it’s not working as well and how do I express that with Love Can can I double click that one to this is such a big question for women and of course you know as a man I I have my own biases and but do you would you say that often times it’s better to wait until after I mean if there’s a certain amount of trust right if there’s a certain amount of trust in history you know what I mean it’s better to wait until the debrief session to kind of give feedback versus you know like we like the example you gave before giving too much feedback in the moment I totally think so yeah I think it’s important to know that we’re all in um Altered States and sometimes it’s good to not um dive into those mechanics right away and allow the the sort of things that have been shooken up to just settle the sentiments to sh settle um and coming from a place of like let’s come together in our more sober States and and have a discussion around how this could be better you know and um and giving that feedback obviously if there’s something huge happening in the moment you do have to express yourself but I love your idea around not necessarily you say something great um in your workshops when women say like no not like that no no no and and that feedback um is important to know for a man but usually in the the Heat of the Moment doesn’t always translate really well so it’s like how how to how does he strengthen his ego a little bit but how does she give her delivery and express more of like oh sir that felt so good when you do it like this though it’s going to make me come so hard yeah I mean yeah like who doesn’t want to make you come so hard like like that the deliver is important because what’s the point of communicating if someone can’t hear you you know that’s that’s that’s just a really great point in relational communication that’s worth expanding on a tiny bit which is to be responsible for the receiver right big time right to to to be like so in in any situation like this and what I’m actually getting from talking to you is just how much of a meditative awareness practice like full body whole body heart mind body awareness practice that that this work is and how you know in that awareness to be aware of how we’re delivering something to somebody so that they can receive it so the example you gave I just think I just see it so so much in couples right of like how do how do I tell him he’s not feeling me cuz there’s a lot of Truth to the fact that men aren’t feeling you properly right so how do we how do we work that stuff out um and I think that the erotic play um space is such a great way to practice that I love because in your workshops there’s a lot of play with energy and you you even say don’t touch genitals don’t be touching butts like which is frustrating a little bit but also completely um necessary because it’s like let’s just start on this energetic level and what’s what’s showing up on that level before we break out the whips and chains and the vloggers and and the the handcuffs like actually like let’s see what’s happening in the energetic exchange of it and it’s funny because um I work with a lot of dominant men and a lot of them resort to their physical strength in order to dominate and as a woman who has been a Dom for a very long time I don’t have that luxury so I’m always thinking about the energetics the emotional aspects the mental aspects of dominance so that I’m helping um Partners expand Beyond you know maybe the default of like I’m just going to throw you over my shoulder um which is so much [ __ ] fun too let me just say I love when men do that to me but there’s all of these other um opportunities that I don’t know if a lot of dominant men actually tap into so your workshops are great because it does actually tap you into what’s happening energetically and what is like going on in the eye contact what’s going on and the way you’re moving your body like all of that stuff when taken into consideration just deepens it so much more yeah it’s a nice it’s a nice marriage what I do and what you do yeah it’s great I mean I’ve seen I’ve seen a lot of grounded flogging in my day and I’m like I’m like yeah you’ve got the whip man but you there’s no [ __ ] in your legs it’s like going all over the place yeah yeah it’s an well the the whip just so you you know it’s an extension of you right so it’s just an extension of you so what’s happening there it’s not connected it’s not going to work well I could like nerd out forever Meo this yeah you know this is this is our happy time happy space um but I I wanted to really touch on this um you know because I I teach sacred intimacy I know you really like to bring in the aspect of the Sacred and the shamanic into into these erotic spaces so maybe a little conversation for those that are sort of into this work that want to take it out of the realm of just pleasure right or expression and into you know what what would you consider making what do you consider makes this kind of erotic space sacred yeah um for me the intentionality is important but again getting curious around how do I expand Beyond playing in the bedroom with these concepts of creativity and flow and pleasure and surrender and power and all of these themes because these themes are present in all of Kink you know they’re just themes of Life essentially you know as we’ve been speaking I got really curious around um the masculine feminine leader follower qualities within my own self and how playing in these Concepts actually helps me strengthen the balance within me because I start to feel into like okay you know if something’s showing up in my relationship that might lead or point to something that needs to be looked at in my masculine energy or my feminine energy or my leadership energy or my followership energy and the idea of being able to have places to practice with Consciousness and um and and measure is such a beautiful way of saying like oh I really want to be able to come back home to self again cuz again with the AOS energy like we talked about earlier this is my internal medicine that belongs to me you know it’s something I’m born with and if if I’m not connecting to it then I just need to look at what’s in the way but instead of like getting oh frustrated with how am I going to figure this out like no let’s play like let’s get in our creativity and our curiosity around like how do I play with the that might be blocking me from what I desire um you know when I have students I talk to them about like I would love for you to just do a practice where you’re just doing leaders leader for a day and then follower for a day like go out with the intention of like I’m going to be in my leadership all day now how is that showing up in your body like are you getting your jaw a little clenched are you like getting a little oh I’m in leadership why isn’t anyone doing exactly like like you know how are you doing leadership and then followership like have you turned into a total doormat and do you feel like kind of you know brushed aside like your feelings don’t matter you know like getting curious because now you might be journeying into the shadow sides of what you think dominance and submission is is but when we really get into the higher self aspects of it there’s so much more expansion and flow with that possibility like we’re always in leader and follower all the time we’re always moving in between masculine and feminine all the time how do I get more acquainted with those parts of myself so that I have choice at the end of the day I’m not just operating blindly and unconsciously by default I’m actually like choosing like how I want to show up in every moment and and being able to do that again is like not just Mastery in the bedroom but Mastery of life like I choose the reality that I want to live in and I know how to navigate with it and I know how to flow with it um and I think Abraham Hicks also says like he who has control over their own energy and the control of others is the most powerful person in the world so when you have practice with what that looks like and and playing with it oh my gosh anything is possible and it makes life so much more fun yeah you know I I I always like to think about that um I love that and I like to think about um Liberation whenever I think about you know sacred practice I like to think what what what liberates something in them that you know lets light shine through the morning more right for some people like for me for example like I’m almost always in a dominant position right so for me probably my practice would be more submissive submissive practice I’ll give you my card yeah yeah playing in the surrender role mode not that I I I actually when I do it I I love it and but and it it probably it liberates something in me that I you know that that gets kind of stuck but I think that when I think about what makes any practice sacred whether it’s just you know good old vanilla sex or or you know the the the darkest of you know Dom sub Dynamics I think that it’s because something gets liberated love gets liberated uh sort of nervous system energy gets liberated light gets liberated and I always like this I one of my teachers used to say like you know can you um how does God want you to [ __ ] her in this moment so that she’s more you know right like like so if yeah yeah if if H how would you know what kind of what kind of um uh phrase would make you know the god smile kind of thing right and and so to just constantly keep that one of this I think it’s so so easy for people to get into Tantra and get into my work get into your work to really get caught up in the in the physical sensation and emotional sensationalism of it all the humanness of it right which is totally understandable but I I I always like to think like all right so what would what would liberate more love between us even if we’re not in a you know in a you know romantic relationship what what would liberate love in this moment and and I’m curious what do I mean we’ve talked about a lot but what do you see that does that like what what are like the the ways that you see that happen in your space well you know it’s interesting because you brought up the vanilla sex for a for a brief moment and I immediately was thinking which is great but like some my definition might be different than yours it’s like for many vanilla means the absence of kink and for me vanilla is just functional like let’s have sex and have an orgasm and or you know like and for me I feel like people can use sex a lot like they use fast food like I I’m hungry let’s get In-N-Out Burger yeah I just let’s scratch that itch and get it over with I just want a burger but you know I don’t want to [ __ ] live off of In-N-Out Burger I want to have the seven course three Michelin star experience and people are living off of In-N-Out Burger I think most of America and most of the world is um and that breaks my [ __ ] heart because when we actually you know dive deeper into this yeah we learn about um ourselves and our partners but it really is like expanding into Infinite possibility you know what I mean like I I think that it’s important for people to realize that this is the Core Essence of who we are and our sexuality is the Core Essence of who we are and while people are doing Joe despenza and Tony Robin and I think that’s [ __ ] awesome by the way they’re amazing um leaders um there’s a way that we’re working almost from the outside in and I think if we can really start looking into how we’re showing up for sex CU how we do one thing is how we do everything so how are you doing sex how are you doing intimacy how are you doing pleasure um and start looking at those parts of ourselves I tell you like when those shifts start happening everything else changes I’ve seen it in myself I’ve seen it in virtually everybody that spent time in my work right just their whole life starts to expand as their sex starts to expand and it can happen so many different ways I mean you could do breath work you can do iasa you can be throwing up in a bucket and there’s all these different ways of going about um coming home and and and evolving in that sense but I think the erotic is like at our [ __ ] fingertips all the channel is right through the center of the body it’s right here like the deepest part of us is what gets lit up the longer we stay an erotic experience like to the fast food piece right if we just if we just have a 5 minute or 10 minute quickie which is which is fine yeah um but if we then then we don’t really open up this these these tubes of energy that are that basically like you got to think about it it’s here yeah you know between the throat and the it it radiates out into the entire body right and if we don’t spend enough time like really clearing those and and nourishing those and amplifying those and opening those up we’re like we’re limiting how much power we can run through our bodies um that Journey yeah I always you know it’s I I I wonder the question that came to me is like do do can people get like overly addicted to Kink I mean you see thaten anything can be used in a bad way like I mean like even something as beautiful as Kink and sex like it’s darker like how extreme can go it’s Hungry Ghost you’re right because it’s not actually being fully integrated and really let in it’s like what’s that hit what’s that hit what’s what’s the next one how do we keep building on top of it yeah that’s absolutely um a possibility with Kink and it happens all the time but it’s it’s interesting I remember when I first learned about Tantra I went to see a tantra teacher and I’m like I want you to give me multiple orgasms and like I want to come without being touched I want to have these like just explosive orgasms and he’s like how are you with feeling your pain how are you with feeling longing and sadness and I was like wait what like oh yeah that’s real Tantra yeah most people don’t really real tun is no [ __ ] right yeah yeah it’s not just about yeah uh G-spot massage yeah totally totally and you know like the second chakra is our emotions and our sexuality and our creativity and it’s like oh yeah like first chakra is our subconscious they we go oh my gosh so true yeah yeah oh well this has been so much fun Kimmy yeah yeah yeah really pleasure to dive into this and you know you’re you’re a master and this and I you know I’ve just had a few little experiences um in in that kind of Arena but I I I really love that since you started 2002 I started 2008 wow that that this idea of the Consciousness and the the meditative and yogic practices of intimacy are now actually being seen as something that is uh like part of holistic health and Spiritual Development right and so yeah thank you for being somebody pushing that forward into the world and thank you for coming and visiting us thank you for being a peer and also the work that you do as a healthy masculine in the erotic world it’s really important we need more of you and I hope more people are inspired to yeah follow that thread of curiosity and learn more about what’s possible and the erotic yeah yeah yeah amen