we can be in this place where we’re so
blinded by our own pain that we are not
in consent and and we’re saying things
that are mean and really creating a you
know a toxic experience when what we’re
actually wanting to communicate is like
I’m hurt right men are are living in
this experience of feeling emotionally
unsafe with their feminine Partners
often and so this idea of I need to
manipulate you in some form or fashion
emotionally financially somewhere along
the way when you trip past manip when
you start to get into manipulation
that’s where it starts to darken there’s
these parts of us that get stuck we have
a trauma at a certain point
developmentally and then we get stuck in
that place and so sometimes when we get
when we get triggered that trauma gets
activated as you know and then all of
the sudden we’re in our you know
30-year-old 40-year-old 50-year-old
whatever body with that voice and that
look but it’s a 5-year-old that is is
like screaming
out welcome to the embodied relationship
Experience Podcast my name is John
weinland I your host today I am so
pleased to be with two of my dear
friends and sisters uh Jamie Elizabeth
Thompson and Jess magic and we are going
to dive into this topic which is a
supercharged topic about what
distinguishes the dark masculine from
the wounded masc masculine what
distinguishes the dark feminine from the
wounded feminine and really talking
about the the framework that has been
laid out about the difference
between a masculine and a feminine that
we all have and men and women and all of
the things that have been swirling
around since basically since me too
right and and what we’ve seen we’re
going to really try to unpack what we’ve
seen in terms of how people
use or weaponize or misuse or abuse each
other with uh with these terms and what
exactly is happening out there in this
struggle right like this struggle that
we’re seeing for men and women to find
Healing with each other so I want to
start before we jump in before I bring
Jamie and Jess in I want to start with
just a little recap of you know my
framework for looking at this and some
of it I borrow from from from one of my
teachers David data and it’s the
framework of a first second and third
stage kind of relating and in the first
stage of relating we’re really in our
own we’re we’re self centered we’re
really thinking about what we need what
we want um which can be extremely
healthy what we desire which can be a
very healthy use of what David data
would call the first stage then there’s
the unhealthy expression of the first
stage which is really about um your not
giving me what I want right so we go
from this place of recognizing what we
need and want to this place of to making
this leap of uh why aren’t you giving me
this and that becomes sort of an
unhealthy use of the first stage
expression in the second stage we’re
really in this kind of healing shared
modality of what’s best for the
relationship or what’s best for the
community or what’s best for the world
it’s a it’s a we centered uh approach to
relating and then in the third stage as
David describes it we’re really thinking
about the Divine we’re we’re expressing
for the Divine what does love want what
does art want what does the some kind of
higher expression of Consciousness and
love want to experience in this moment
and it may be in the third stage it may
be different than what I want what love
wants might be different than my
preference or what I need might be
different than what you want or need
love might have a whole different idea
for us does that make sense to you guys
yeah I mean I think you I think y’all
have heard it a few times here but I
think that’s a nice framework and one of
the distinctions I want to start with is
this idea of what’s the difference
between the wounded
masculine uh the wounded feminine and
then the dark masculine and the dark
feminine right because we’re seeing
aspects of both play out all over social
media you know all yeah I’m sure in the
work that you guys do with women and
with men you’re seeing it play out in
relationships we’re seeing it play out
and so I think it’s important for us to
at this day and age of of social
media public shaming I think I would
call it right and and social media
calling people out for us to really
identify what is what is the appropriate
way for us to work with wounds and what
is a way for us to really watch
ourselves because we all have Darkness
right and what are the both positive and
negative aspects of Darkness what are
the positive and negative aspects of
wound right and and really start to
flesh this out um because I think that
people are stuck you know that I feel
that people are stuck in relationship
and trying to figure out how to heal I
mean I I think that’s what I see a lot
of I see people very interested in in
the high level practices ceremonial
practices sexual polarity practices
tantric practices but where they get
stuck is how do we actually heal each
other right so I’d love to hear Let me
just I’d love to hear from both of you
like what what you see as the primary
wound right um with women in particular
and in in this episode we’ll really try
to distinguish you know I’ll try to get
into a little bit about what I see the
difference between the masculine and
feminine within a a man and the
masculine and feminine within a woman
because I think that’s really helpful
distinctions for people to have but I’d
love to hear from you guys about what
you see as the sort of primary wounds
that women are facing um and and how
they’re dealing with it both in a what
you would consider a healthy way and how
they’re dealing with it in what you
would consider an unhealthy way I think
what I see a lot of in my work with
women is of wound around it like can
there’s a pendulum swing and on one end
it can be where a woman is feeling like
she’s not getting her needs met and so
then she becomes very demanding and um
starts kind of emotionally dumping on
her partner because she doesn’t know how
to actually hold her pain how to feel
her pain how to move through it and on
the other side she could become more of
a dmat and go into more of like the
fawning
kind of trauma response and allow for um
things to happen that actually are not
right for her so on one end there’s a
lot of demand and on one end there’s a
lot of doormat and in the middle there’s
this integrated place where I think
you’re pointing to where there’s a
capacity that we build to be able to sit
with and be in our own pain our wounding
our needs our desires our boundaries and
hold that as a an integrated adult and
then ask for consent with a partner
before we project emotional experience
on them and understanding the difference
between sharing something
vulnerably and allowing your needs to be
seen expressing a boundary and doing all
of that from this place of compassion
both for self and other while also
having consent with your masculine
counterpart or any other human being for
that matter right right right right and
I I think this is a really interesting
idea of like how at what point because
we’re all wounded you know we’re all
dealing with some wound or another um
but at what point is the expression our
wound what what at what point does it
cross a line um at what point do does
hey I’m sharing my wound with you
because often times we’ll find these
like um the way it shows up in my work
is needs conversations right whereas
where a need conversation can be both
something that’s very um uh clear and a
needs conversation can also be a subtle
complaint right that I’m curious at what
point does the sharing of a of a wound
or a
vulnerability start to cross a line into
becoming damaging how how would you guys
distinguish that I’d love to just add
another layer into what Jamie shared
that may also come back to what you’re
talking about but the the first things
that came to me were survival and safety
right and I feel like it’s those are
there they might even be underneath what
our needs are um they’re or they’re
definitely connected to it I think that
there is a really in my work with women
I see a very like
consistent um pattern or wound that’s
underneath uh
manipulation and certain way of
manipulating how we get our needs met
right that is rooted in a lack of safety
or a lack or a fear of survival and it’s
I think that those are anthropological
and biological and historical and
cultural and so there’s so many
different layers to that and so part of
that work really also has to be
around is my safety actually dependent
on you right or am is there do can I
raise myself in such a way where I am
circulating that energy of healthy Jamie
and I talk a lot about the healthy adult
like can I find the way to regulate my
nervous system can I find the way to
track when I’m disregulated can I find a
way when I’m leaving my body to either
make sure you’re okay and manage your
experience or um or going into a place
of collapse and all of those things are
about safety and they’re about either
reinforcing that I’m not safe or
reinforcing that I am safe and then
underneath another aspect of what I feel
is can be emotional manipulation or
psychological manipulation that can come
from the feminine is a a deep fear of
survival like am I going to be okay and
there’s so many different Dynamics where
whether that’s like your actual um you
know you’re finan financially dependent
on a partner or something like that you
have and you’re like how am I going to
do this without to help me and so I’ll
just you know I’ll just sacrifice this
or you know it’s like but that survival
I think you know for it expresses itself
I believe through men and women in
different ways but it’s really big for
both of us so I feel like safety and
survival are something that we all need
to take a look at where where where
we’re at with that yeah you know in a
way it’s almost like throwing out the
masculine and feminine terminology is
very helpful for this conversation and
yet you know there are some distinctions
that I think are important to to
highlight because this healthy adult
we’ve been talking about this you know
you know on our thread um you know what
it means to be a healthy adult and I
think the thing that I’d love to
doubleclick at least from the feminine
perspective is once it goes from I’m I’m
having I’m wounded or I’m having an
experience or I’m having feelings to
manipulation right because the thing I
see and that I’ve experienced that I’ve
certainly been guilty of is is not
recognizing how manipulative I am in
order to feel safe in order you know men
are still dealing with this you know em
you know emotional safety you’re talking
about actual physical safety and safety
of being able to you know pay the bills
or take care of the children men are are
living in this experience of feeling
emotionally unsafe with their feminine
Partners often and so this idea of I
need to manipulate you in some form or
fashion emotionally financially um in
whatever way that’s when I think we
start to like kind of we going to look
at a spectrum between you know sort of
healthy expression of wounds and dark
masculine or dark feminine right
somewhere along the way when you trip
past manip when you start to get into
manipulation that’s where it starts to
darken um would you guys agree and how
how do you how do you guys see that in
in women in particular these days
yeah I think that there’s uh when driven
by the the need the Deep need for safety
or survival or love I mean it can even
get into like this need to be loved like
it can really be centered in the heart
but women can drop into this place where
that wounding runs through their actions
and their actions are no longer coming
from a a choice m there there’s like
there’s like an internal part that
starts driving the bus per se like you
know if we’re looking at this out right
we black out through the lens of
internal family systems or parts work
it’s like there’s some part that is not
our integrated higher self adult self
that is driving our bus of parts at some
point another part that needs survival
safety love comes and starts driving and
when when that happens there’s a really
a lot L like I I look at it like we
become intoxicated we’re we’re no longer
in our sober self there’s a younger part
that starts driving and I know from my
personal experience and from just seeing
this in so many women working with so
many women it’s like there’s there’s
almost like a blackout and then there’s
a a a part that comes in and it and it’s
it’s like a pain body it’s the you know
this greater sort of life form that is
out for blood and it it wants to
confirm its Brokenness and it continues
to feed on suffering and so if it were
to actually let love in in that moment
that part would um start to heal and
like pain body would kind of disappear
but that that part that really just
wants to um hurt because it feels hurt
or or like make it change like there’s a
tremendous amount of force and I mean
what it feels like is it’s it’s those
moments and we all know what it’s like
as a human being where we’re just
flooded and our nervous system is no
longer like we’re no longer able to hold
it and so we’re there’s a there’s a
desperation yeah that comes from that
place that we can have a lot of
compassion for and it um when we’re
moving from that place it can be
emotionally violating for the man
because we can be in this place where
we’re so blinded by our own pain that we
are not in consent and and we’re saying
things that are mean and really creating
a you know a toxic experience when what
we’re actually wanting to communicate is
like I’m hurt right you know I really
want you to love me like I feel lost I
feel desperate I feel afraid and when
you hurt me which is a very you know
happens often right like um intended and
unintended ways and so just to be able
to communicate like wow you’re really
hurting me right now or you really hurt
me then right I think the thing as you
were speaking what came to me was that
the the it’s so clear the masculine
violation right it’s phys it’s physical
abuse is the manifestation of I am so
hurt and my nervous system is so lit up
that I need to impose hurt on you
physically but I think there’s also
psychological and emotional that can
come from the masculine of of course of
course I’m just pointing to I’m just
pointing to the like the clearest um
expression of what I would consider
going from being in a wounded State as a
man right to now I’m literally I’m
literally wanting to hurt you physically
because you’ve hurt me so bad and my
nervous system can’t control myself
right um I’m I’m curious how that how
you see that show up in women like is it
is it just like what you said where it’s
just they start to sort of emotionally
tear men down or publicly I mean we see
a lot of public shaming right is that is
that the way that you guys see it
happening or is I’m sure there’s more
Nuance to it than that yeah there’s
there’s two things the first before I
even say that I feel like adding to
Jim’s Point there’s also a real piece
about Developmental stuckness and this
is what we’re talking about with healthy
adult like there’s these parts of us
that get stuck we have a trauma at a
certain point developmentally and then
we get stuck in that place and so
sometimes when we get when we get
triggered that trauma gets activated as
you know and then all of a sudden we’re
in our you know 30-year-old 40-year-old
50-year-old whatever body with that
voice and that look but it’s a
5-year-old that is is like screaming out
and we don’t we’re not trained you know
we’re not trained across like I feel
like this stuff should be taught in
right school like middle school high
school as soon as people start to get
into a certain place where they can
develop mentally start to assimilate
this because to be able to one of the
most life-changing things it’s a body of
work that both Jamie and I have trained
in was when I when I started learning
how to track regression and starting to
see in someone’s face like oh this is
this is not adult man John this is not
my like partner or my friend who’s like
fully here they’re they’re sliding back
to a former version of thems and that is
the one that’s got the microphone right
now
and how do I stop relating to them 100%
as the you know the man that I fell in
love with and in His Highest self cuz
he’s not there right now and same thing
with you know with women with humans and
there’s a way in that moment to be able
to track that even just by asking like
how how old do you feel right now and
there’s a way it’s like even a simple
question like that somebody be like wow
I actually feel like I’m 12 years old
and I’m in the backseat of the my
parents car and it’s driving and I have
no control you know and it’s like when
we can what that does is it slows down
momentum cuz I think you know going back
to your your question a lot of times
where the hurt comes from like the
verbal emotional psychological is when
there’s a velocity and the pain body as
Jamie was saying is like picked up and
that is just running and as it it can
like amplify itself right and if we’re
and when then we’re like we’re we’re not
even realizing it but we’re like
amplifying each other in that space if
somebody doesn’t have the wherewithal to
be like wait what’s actually happening
right here where are you who are you
right now and what part of you is
running the show right now and like you
know is that part what does that part
need and so I think that sometimes you
know in my work with both men and women
it’s like but definitely with women it’s
like oh that that’s a that’s a like a
six-year-old girl actually right now and
she just she’s trying to just know that
she’s loved and she’s playing out all
these things that and and and the adult
version just doesn’t even know is not
even really conscious of that happening
but then once we have a opportunity in a
healthy way to start to train that and
track that I think we allow a witness
Consciousness that higher self that
Jamie is speaking to to actually be
recognized and stabilized so that we can
take these moments of like hold on just
give me one second it’s like I done this
myself where I’m like hold on I feel
that velocity picking up I feel myself
wanting to make you wrong or whatever
that is or and then I’m like okay how do
I lift up into a different Octave of my
capacity right now to just take a peak
right now so I can at the very least let
you know that like this part of me is
very young and really just actually
needs to be heard and held but like when
you can take a moment to actually even
for a moment unwind to just let the
other person know what is happening it
can create so much more space um for
that like you know going back to your
question about that like kind of like
unconscious dump it’s all about you D
like just that alone can take a enough
of a pause to make that a lot more
available yeah yeah it seems like we’re
really talking about um nervous system
capacity and
awareness right I mean having the
nervous system capacity to take some
breath to really understand oh I’m
getting my you know my [ __ ] is really up
and I I’m going to I’m going to hurt you
I just wonder why so many people I mean
even conscious Community right like so
many people struggle with this right so
many people struggle with this the way I
see it in men is that it shows up in
even in non painbody moments it shows up
as as manipulation often times Financial
manipulation um uh do doering emotional
domineering um reactivity right I see it
I see it show up a lot um even in the
nonc conflict moments of how am I
constantly angling
to uh the when I see it in the what I
would consider the dark masculine it’s
about controlling you I mean I think
maybe it’s the same for both men and
women here right but it’s really about
controlling you so that I feel safe you
know it’s about controlling you so that
you’ll give me what I want and um and
having the awareness to sort of
recognize that I think is really crucial
and I’m wondering why you think that
that’s so why is that so tricky like why
is why is this the thing that just keeps
coming up again and again and again and
stopping people from
really en healing enjoying each
other I think on a on a
larger
scale the practice of systemic control
and man manipulation of humans has been
what we’ve been indoctrinated into yeah
starting with religion and even the way
government is set up I mean that it it’s
like we live inside of a paradigm that
is
about dominating for the safety of the
people right there there’s there’s a lot
of that kind of indoctrination that
happens and you know growing up inside
of patriarchy if that’s what we want to
call it where you know there there’s
that has been the primary form of how to
be with the feminine like the feminine
is uncontained and powerful and has so
much energy and that’s terrifying so we
better Dominate and contain and you know
keep it small and disconnect women from
their true power and aliveness because
the systems might not be able to
function in exactly the way they
currently do if they didn’t do that so I
I feel like like we are born it’s like
there’s like a legacy burden in ifs
speak to of like that we are born into
of the domination and control yeah and
oppression yeah and and then you see
something like you know feminism and the
meoo movement and while there’s a lot of
benefits and importance of having
equality in many ways you know civil
rights and everything there’s also a
backlash there’s also a like a balancing
of the the power that has happened in a
way
of like creating more like women now
want power over men and so we’re in this
battle of who’s going to have the power
and who’s going to have the control
rather than this place of third stage as
you’re speaking of it where we’re in
service and interconnected together and
connected to the Divine yeah but it’s
like we’re we’re in this phase of like
this power struggle and and women are
trying to get power in the ways that
they know how which is through these
manipulative seductive controlling
tactics and men are trying to get power
through the ways they know how of you
know dominating and also manipulating or
stonewalling and and you know
interchanging women and men because we
we all cross over and use all of the
different tactics but I think there’s
just it’s like where are you taught as
Jess was saying earlier where are we
taught healthy relating you know where
are we even we’re growing up inside of
this Paradigm of of control so to step
out of that requires someone to choose
to do some kind of deep inner work and
soul searching and and even to your
point earlier going into um like higher
vibration tantric practice or breath
work practice or ceremonial practice
there’s a lot of things that can feel
really good and and kind of Lift us out
of the internal growup work the meeting
every part the feeling all the pain and
getting through that and learning how to
communicate with our partner like that’s
the the not not as sexy practices and I
work with a lot of women that come and
they’re like yeah I want like sensual
embodiment and I’m like let’s let’s talk
about holding your nervous system you
know like there’s that there’s a step
that it that we just aren’t even taught
to look for you know and then media
sells us this solution of like if you
just buy this product and if you just do
this thing and if you look this way and
you act this way then then everything
will be better and everything is an
avoidance of really actually doing this
this deeper inner work that makes
everything possible uh the way you said
that about we missed a step you know and
we’re and we’re still missing a step
right I think now with this conversation
and I think a lot of these conversations
are starting to happen especially in my
world in the polarity world where people
are like yes I I know how to you know be
an invitation and be in my feminine so
to speak and and energy but I don’t know
how to like keep my nervous system
regulated you know in those moments and
I think I’m wondering if if this is how
you guys see it we we’re coming out of
of the domination of the patriarchy
which you know which goes back to back
to the Romans and the Aztecs you know
didn’t just start with the church this
has been sort of human conditioning for
a long time even in Egypt even you know
what I mean like so so we have used you
know power has been misused and now
we’re coming out of this out of this
period where women not only feminism but
then me too where women are like okay
yes now we’re going to exert power over
this abuse that we’ve experienced for
100,000 years being property basically
and being burned and being all the
things that women have had to endure but
we’re using power as we know which um
includes uh again I see so much of this
public shaming that’s going on that is a
power play right and and and that’s
where you know women can they actually
have power to take a microphone with a
100,000 followers and start to call
people out right call men out for being
narcissist or being whatever and and I
and I see this as the pendulum maybe
swinging a little bit too far we’ve
talked about this you know in in I’m I’m
wanting power because you guys have had
the power for the whole you know the
whole pretty much all of human history
and now we’re wanting the power and
we’re going to use it in it’s almost the
same ethos as men used it it’s it’s a
it’s a power play it’s just using
slightly different
tools as the collective
feminine um how do you see that and and
how do you see that playing out I have a
lot of trust in the process to be honest
I have a lot of trust I think that you
know if if we look at a grief cycle I
have kind of own version of the of the
grief cycle but it’s like
there’s denial and then there’s either
grief or rage in some order it’s like
Comin once we realize the thing it’s
like there’s grief and then there’s the
Rage of the Injustice or there’s a rage
and then there’s the grief that it
happened and there’s this phase of
acceptance like well that happened and
then there’s a phase of forgiveness like
once we’ve accepted like okay the event
happened the thing happened the cultural
thousands of years happen whatever that
is then there’s this accept then there’s
this forgiveness of like wow okay like
here here we are and I’m going to open
that’s like the heart is starting to
open and then there’s the compassion
from the forgiveness is like wow I
understand why that happened I
understand why this abuse happened I
understand why why these people were so
afraid of the shocky or the feminine
power or that Wild’s like wisdom or that
connection to Spirit that is a very
natural element that sometimes shows up
more naturally in the feminine aspects
of
ourselves and that’s so powerful that is
so powerful and then and then I’ve what
I’ve seen because I my my history is I
used to run a nonprofit that was all
dedicated to Healing the root causes of
sexual trauma so I spent seven years
deep deep deep specifically in one of
the darkest aspects of humanity which is
sexual trauma incest abuse and like in
the healing field around both working
with male and female survivors and
looking at the cultural context of it
all and that’s where this kind of frame
for the grief process came the Final
Phase of that is actually gratitude
where there’s like this
WOW even though that was so hard it had
to happen this way for some reason and
now I can feel grateful even for the
Injustice and that’s a very high level
to achieve but it’s possible and so I
have this trust that with everything
that
with all of the with you know back
during the pandemic all the race riots
and with me too movement and I see these
movements that are like you know those
are kind of us focused that I’m speaking
to but with these movements that that
have happened that feel like they’re
just like unearthing unearthing
something that is so deep and it’s been
so prevalent that just it needs to go
through it’s like coming out of that
Collective denial and coming into it
needs to rage and it needs to grieve and
that doesn’t always look pretty and it’s
not always Fair it’s not always
proportionate to whoever is representing
that think that that’s a really
challenging thing for like whether it’s
like this race or a person from this
race that’s holding this or this man
that’s holding this for this woman
because she’s on the on the tip of the
arrow of thousands of years of that
she’s like recognizing but she’s not
necessarily um parsing out and being
like hey I realize this is a
disproportionate amount of rage and
Injustice that I’m pointing into right
now like the highest but just that would
change the experience for men so much
that level of awareness like hey I’m not
just screaming at you I’m screaming at
my father my brothers and all the men
who’ve you know abused me or neglected
me right can can you be the tip of the
arrow for my tip of the arrow
recognizing that this is not all about
you at all but I need but you’re
representing something and I need to you
know that that is so healing that is
like I I mean I feel emotional about
like that healing and so I feel like if
we can somehow on a collective level
start to be a stand for that level of
healing I actually believe that we can
get through this whole like me too is
just it it’s like the the white head
that is like pussing out of like a
deeper systemic toxicity that is like
it’s not pleasant nobody wants a white
head on their face you know but it’s the
Collective whitee head of that aspect
and we’re like we need to like let that
P out and then like and then start to do
that deeper cleanse um and I think that
there’s like what your work is what our
work is and what so many of our of our
peers and beloveds are doing right now
is I feel
like a huge offering is to start to
create those healing Fields so it’s like
we can really detoxify detoxify detx
because then I think our nervous system
will be like I feel flushed out now I
can hold space for this at a personal
and Collective level yeah I mean I see
that in my workshops where the moment
there’s a practice where there’s consent
and Men know like hey you’re holding the
no you’re holding her no I mean I’ll put
a man in front of a woman and for five
minutes she’s just saying every no that
she never got to say or she’s saying no
for every woman that never got to say no
the men love it like inevitably if I go
men can you take more they’ll be like
yeah and and but but but it’s that
because it’s set up in a container and
it’s very clear what what you’re talking
about men actually really do have
capacity to hold that where where
there’s the issue that comes up is when
it’s unconscious I am unconsciously you
are my father right now and and you are
the other men and you are the men of
history that have Abused Women and and
that part I think men are just they
don’t have most men don’t have the
nervous system capacity and even men
that do have the nervous system capacity
we’ve talked about this it doesn’t feel
good to just have all of your
unconscious wounds dumped on me with no
recognition that they’re your
unconscious wounds some of it might have
to do with what I said you know maybe 10
20% I [ __ ] up I said the wrong thing I
did the wrong thing I looked at the
waitress you know and you know and I did
the thing and but but now I’m taking the
brunt for this whole other thing and I
think that’s where men are struggling
and I also see it I’ve seen it in my
personal relationships and I see it in
coach in couples that I coach that
there’s this sort of unconscious
um demand or expectation it’s it’s sort
of like a covert contract of like I just
get to dump whatever however and you’re
going to hold it for me and men are
being and this is part of you know the
kind of uh unforeseen consequences of
David dat’s Work men think like oh I
have to hold every everything that she’s
giving me with equinity because that’s
what David data says a conscious man is
supposed to do and men are going wait a
minute that’s not quite right that’s not
quite so I think what we’re bumping into
is how do we bring Consciousness and
nervous system regulation into those
moments so that we we can see that it’s
not just you I’m mad at because you
looked at the waitress’s ass you know
I’m I’m there’s so much more in this
urgent expression that needs to happen
how do we how would you work with women
on
that well I actually want to offer
something to men here in this moment um
because if there is an
unconscious rage dump coming your way
that you don’t wish to receive and you
didn’t get the beware of coming your way
exactly hello un we should brand signs
like that and send them out yeah if if
you’re not if you’re not available for
that it’s okay and I like I want to
invite men to develop the capacity to
hold their boundary in relation to that
and that maybe women have gotten this um
like you know get out of jail free car
because they’re like oh my God there’s
so much Collective oppressed rage in the
feminine that like now we just get to do
this like we just get to do this
whenever we want and every man has to
hold space for us to do that and I’ve
seen that like I’ve seen that
Consciousness and and that’s just where
a lot of women are at or they you know
they enter polarity work and they
haven’t done inner child healing and
this is often where it’s like this
happens right very true and in that
place a a a man can actually
hold his boundary in relation to the
feminine and um it’s a term that I got
from Sue Johnson in a therapeutic
training like 15 years ago it’s called
catching the bullet yeah I feel that
that’s a capacity that humans can
develop so that when someone is bringing
them energy that they’re not actually
available resource to receive and
present for in that moment that’s not
healing I that healing is when there’s
an
interconnected experience that’s
happening and if it’s just one-sided and
she feels better and he feels terrible
that wasn’t actually Collective healing
that was something that like the poison
just transferred and I see this a lot in
relationships where the poison will
transfer from one to the other and one
will feel better and other won’t feel
better and it’s like okay something
wasn’t actually really coming from a
deeper sense of love or or held and
available in a way where there’s like
consent present so I want to invite that
in so important Jamie I mean it’s so
important because I I I because Men
actually this and again this is the
byproduct of years of you know sort of
David dat’s work and I don’t think David
intended this part partly I think he did
what he was TR what David was trying to
say just to kind of take David off the
hook here a little bit David was trying
to say get wide enough and uh connected
to Consciousness enough so that you are
the witness of the experience happening
in front of you and you are not the
experience that is the essence of
masculine practice I am the witness of
my emotions your emotions are fighting
whatever’s happening I am the witness of
that I’m so the witness of that that
there is no there is nothing for you to
hook into I think theoretically that is
a [ __ ] beautiful practice that I
strive for that a lot of men strive for
but we are also human and we also have
sensitivity and s and I think that you
saying like hey guys you actually have
permission to go just my nervous
system’s not capable of holding you the
way I know you want to be held right now
and hearing the things you’re hearing
I’m not available for that just giving
them permission and then also on the
other side like letting women know it’s
okay if men do that yeah I’ve literally
tried to do that a few times and been
told no you need to sit down and listen
to my dump start to finish then you can
speak and blah blah blah blah and and I
think that both men and women need to
learn like no that is not healthy
relating that’s the cycle of abuse
that’s a woman who has been deeply hurt
that is then I’m in to do the thing that
happened to me to somehow you know make
that right yeah yeah of course men are
doing this too right like it’s not just
women men are emotionally dumping being
overly reactive I mean I see a lot of
men doing
that is
true sure you guys both happening in
every direction yes yes I think that
ultimately in a healthier Dynamic when a
man draws his boundaries like I’m just
not available for this right now like I
see you I want this for you I want you
to have this release but I’m just not
available for this right now ultimately
that should engender trust that should
engender and and should you know is
obviously a tricky word but like I know
should
celebrated Jamie has been an amazing
teacher for me personally as somebody
that has leaned on the side of less
boundaries more available for everything
that anyone wants to bring in every
moment because I have a lot of capacity
and I can I can take it and I can like
be the witness and I can but then it’s
like whoa you know but you know are
Jim’s reflected me specifically around
you know just just B healthy boundaries
for my own self and then you know
ultimately what what happens when we
have those good boundaries is we start
to establish more trust in ourselves and
more trust in each other and so I’ve
specifically seen situations where men
who typically do have the capacity to
hold that have told their women when
they’re in a good relationship hey I I
just I’m so stretched right now I just
don’t I can’t hold this right now like I
need to take care of myself and like you
know if you can be held by one of your
girlfriends or d d you know and it’s
like wow there’s actually something and
this goes back in some way to David D’s
work around I think one of the best
things that came out of his work was at
least in my life has been around the
testing like the feminine is going to
test you I once I read that I started
tracking it in myself and interrupting
it when I was doing it I’m like oh my
gosh I’m so sorry I was just testing you
yeah I was doing that and in the middle
of it I’ll inter pattern interrupt
myself call it out and then the my male
Partners have been like thank you so
much yeah we would love
so to the women it’s like I do think you
know well I think there’s been things
that have been misinterpreted and not
everything is so like black and white in
David data’s work there’s some really
really instrumental pieces and I think
that that one is one that I would say
for the for the feminine to be able to
track when that is happening it’s like
are you really here for me are you going
to leave me are you going to and that
goes back to the survival can you take
this part of me can you take this part
of me this okay are you going to love
even if I you know yeah well and I think
that the the testing piece I think that
again like so much of David’s work it’s
been misinterpreted to yes I’m going to
test you and that’s like my right that’s
my right exactly and and and that is
where I think what’s happening is we’re
waking up from that and we’re going wait
a minute this is all really beautiful in
in the Realms of polarity and Sexual
Energy and you know just masculine
feminine differences celebrating
differences but but but the human aspect
of hey I’m aware that I’m testing you
which men do too but women are just so
much better at it um it’s like you can
figure out the one shink I could hold 99
things and you’re going to find the one
thing that I just don’t have the
capacity to hold and you’re going to
push that button Until I Collapse and
you know so I think what we’re what
we’re up against is this it’s almost
adverse unconsciously adversarial
thing that’s happening um and that you
you know you’re the first woman who I’ve
ever heard say like hey I’m going to I’m
testing you and I’m aware I’m testing
you and I just want you to know I’m
testing you I mean maybe there’s been
another woman that said that but we
don’t hear that very often yeah and I
think that would be so to recognize how
much it takes to actually hold all of
you is is something that I feel is is
missed a lot like it’s it’s really an
expectation it’s not something that’s
it’s given lots of gratitude and that’s
where I think things go dark right when
there’s that expectation that you’re
supposed to do this that you’re supposed
to do that that’s where I think the
darkness starts to creep in okay so
we’ll start with the premise that
everybody’s wounded in some form or
fashion right and what we’re trying to
discern here in this conversation is you
know what are the light ways to work
with our wounds which I think you guys
have really you know uh highlighted and
then what are what are the dark ways
that we work with our wounds and how can
we start to bring awareness to the ways
that are a bit darker and um when I say
dark I just mean unhealthy painful
hurtful um
destructive and then what are the you
know how do we move how do we move it
back over here where we can now start to
really work with our wounds in in ways
that are healing and what I would even
call sacred right and so I’ll make that
distinction really quick when I’m
working with a wound in a way that opens
your
heart right I’m in a sacred I’m in a
sacred expression of that wound like if
I’m sharing my wound with you in a way
where your heart actually
softens and and melts a bit right that I
believe is a sacred expression of wound
when I’m expressing my wound in a way
that closes your heart or even worse in
a way that damages your heart then I’m
I’m obviously in an unhealthy painful um
abusive uh expression of that wound so
those are the distinctions that I I like
to make but I’m I’m really I’d really
just like to keep just because I think
people really need to hear how have your
masculine Partners over the years
expressed things both in ways that are
you know that have opened your heart
made you want to move toward them made
you want to have compassion for them
made you want to love on them and how
have they expressed their wounds to you
in ways that have done the opposite so I
think a place I could enter this from is
I the conversation of masculine and
feminine I feel can sometimes be
conflated with the conversation of the
inner child and the adult so if there’s
and this is where I really appreciate
the training that Jess referred to
earlier that has me be able to track how
old I feel partner or person is or just
be able to track if it feels like
there’s a regression or something that’s
happening here that’s like Teenage
protector part you know or like
four-year-old one of those yeah yeah
right and and to be able to track that
has been really supportive but there has
been times where I have had a
partner be in you know his a young child
place and expressing something and then
that that is like really an opening of
my heart and I feel connected and like
oh wow he’s there’s like a healing
that’s available here can I ask how he
did that just so just so men listening
can get a sense of like what that looked
like yeah I mean it it it looks like I
mean we have a we have a practice of
asking for consent you know we have a
practice of like I like I’m having an
experience can I share it with you and I
think that’s such an important part to
just even just buy in of of like where
we’re at in in that moment and then he
allowed it to be seen like he you know
there’s there’s like tears there’s
feelings there’s a sharing in a way that
is
holding the child yeah or not holding
the child like there’s there’s kind of a
there’s two different ways that he’s
prepared your nervous system he’s
prepared my nervous system and sometimes
it’s his adult self is holding his child
and he’s sharing it with me and
sometimes there’s actually like it’s
just the child like we’re actually just
so deep inside of a wound cycle right
now and we’re right here in it and
there’s a Clarity of how we can connect
with this part and in that moment I’m
not expecting him to be big masculine
man yeah in that moment I’m just aware
of we’re actually doing some like deep
inner healing right now and that’s
sacred and and there’s a deep amount of
respect that I have for that when it
hasn’t gone so well it’s when there’s
the the child is yielding a a big sword
and a big Shield right and it’s like
it’s just like it’s lashing out because
there’s these different parts that are
defending and protecting the part that
actually look like you you you I mean
how do you distinguish the yeah it goes
from like my child my D to you’re doing
right you’re doing this why are you
doing that it’s it’s all you know you
are responsible for my my experience
right when we start to get into that
territory it’s different than this is
what I’m feeling when you did that I
felt this I try not to use the term this
made me feel yeah you you did this and I
felt you did this and I felt like it’s
not actually your fault that I feel this
way there’s a lot of other options of
ways I could feel when you did this
exact thing depending on where I am in
my where I am in my healing where I you
know there’s a lot of different places
of that so I the the distinct part for
me is the real Awareness on
responsibility for one’s experience and
anytime that he has brought something to
me from that place even if it hurts my
practice is to fully receive that as his
experience without taking it personally
and defending but actually just being
with him in that place yeah I think that
distinction of of this is my
experience you said something that
triggered it or that you know
facilitated it but the experience is way
that I’m having is way bigger than what
you just said and again we’re talking
about awareness we’re talking about the
capacity to use language in a specific
way you know we’re talking about a lot
of things that that that that don’t seem
like much or don’t seem um like you said
sexy to work with but are so crucial so
crucial in in maintaining a a heart
Connection in Conflict totally and the
consent piece again I’m just we’re just
going to keep hitting that like I’ve
literally had Partners say I don’t want
to ask for consent I just want to tell
you how I feel when I you know and I see
this with a lot of men that they they
they fight that okay well I should just
be always available so the consent piece
we’re just going to keep hammering
because it’s so crucial and and I feel I
feel so in alignment with that and also
just have had a couple different
partners where it’s it’s been the other
direction where I’ve asked for the like
you know you’re asking about where have
we been held well and what we not so I
had one relationship where um I mean I
would say this could have been
gaslighting that was happening but there
was a lot of like we would be going from
everything’s school to all of a sudden I
would say something that like out of joy
and all of a sudden it was like he would
throw a freaking like ball of fire at me
it felt like it would go into my solar
plexus it would stun me cuz it was like
where did that come from and then when I
would respond of like wow that just
caught me off so then he then he would
tell me that I’m not okay with anger
yeah and I was like what like I’m I’m
actually great with anger but I’m just
like but it when it comes out of nowhere
it feels like I just got punched in the
stomach and then I don’t know I just
it’s like then I have to reather myself
or I feel really paralyzed and it would
put me in freeze so you know back to
your consent piece it’s like I do think
that really goes in both directions
where I would just ask him for consent
and same kind of thing he’d be like I
shouldn’t have to like this is my anger
and you should be able to handle anger
you’re just not okay with anger and like
that’s so not true so like that that was
really disorienting for me cuz I know
myself and I know my capacity but if I
get stunned if I get sucker punched if I
get blindsided slapped back of the head
you know where I’m just like skipping
along and all like you know it’s like
well how am I supposed to be like take a
breath and be like all of you’re as
welcome here right now I’m like on the
ground bleeding right now out of a
sucker punch um so I think that th those
those these tools you know and when
you’re talking about you know just some
of the the ways of framing things it may
not sound sexy it may sound super basic
but AO and non-verbal nonviolent
communication it’s like these things
that just help us have a frame to take
responsibility you know you would
brought up even before you hurt me like
when you said that I was like you know I
I hear that but also there’s this sort
of like I feel I feel hurt you know I
feel hurt cuz can I is that totally true
am I really sure that you hurt me I feel
hurt by what you just did or said but
you know it’s like even that distinction
can just make it like so much softer to
here even in the depth of pain and I’ve
seen it over and over and I’ve I’ve done
well with it and I’ve done poorly with
it even on my own side of where it’s
like I’ve used language that just if I
was to have changed the language just a
little bit I could have had all the same
feelings but it just could have been
received a little bit better so that
piece of taking responsibility for our
experience over and over and over helps
so much in the other person not having
to do that for us yeah yeah otherwise we
do if if if your partner or your person
can’t it’s like we have to do we have to
just choose am I willing to do the work
for them that they’re not doing for
themsel to hold the bullet to sift
through is this a projection or a
reflection to interrupt to be like how
old are you right now to be like we’re
both slipping into our wounded child
right now and we’re fighting from that
place can I is my witness Consciousness
and my healthy adult strong enough that
I can lift out of that because they
can’t you know and it’s like can I you
could say can I be the bigger person but
it’s kind of like actual can I actually
grow up not bigger person cuz I’m better
but can I actually grow up right now
into my healthy adult enough to get out
of this thing that is not going anywhere
cuz we’re both in our wound yeah exactly
I think that the um other side of this
that I see a lot of is this um and again
I want to say we’re all dark like we all
have I’m sure if I asked you guys what’s
the dark darkest thing you ever said to
a guy or what did to a guy I’m sure it
would be you know intense I’m you know
say so we all have
Darkness the the the the trick I think
is um just starting to piece apart most
of us don’t know oh that’s that’s my
darkness for lack of a better term I’m
just going to use that term because I
really want to keep it like so the part
gaslighting for example like we’ve
probably all been guilty of going like
no no no it didn’t happen like that or
no no that’s you’re being silly or no no
no no right so this the other way I see
all of this play out is in the denial of
your experience right and that that that
it’s one thing for me to own my
experience in front of you and be you
know adult around that or at least be
aware but it’s another thing it’s
another step to be fully um validating I
think would be the word to use from AO
of uh your experience and I think that’s
something else that people tend to just
not understand totally yeah yeah there I
mean there’s a it’s like it you know to
use Ken Wilbur’s um philosophy it’s a
tier 2 Consciousness like there’s
actually a growing up that has to happen
to even be able to hold multiple
perspectives at one time yeah like a lot
of people don’t aren’t yet in that phase
even though they’re adults where they
can hold I’m having an experience of
hurt and you are also having an equal
experience of hurt and both maybe not
equal but both are valid both are
actually equally valid even though I’m
in this body and you’re in that body
yeah like both matter yeah and it’s not
a threat to my existence that you’re
having a different experience than me
right both can be happening and there
there isn’t one objective truth about
our emotional experience that it’s
actually a very nuanced complex system
of truths that are happening in any
moment so to really be able to be in the
uncertainty and that in between space of
staying curious about someone else’s
emotional experience even if I’m having
a intense experience and there’s a
really great example of this where my
partner demonstrated what I would call
really great masculine leadership if
we’re if we’re using that term where I
was quite activated like very close to
being in the like blind unconscious R
driving the car into a tree um you know
I was very close to that place and he
was also you know there it’s like there
was there was heat like we we were we
were in a a hurt dance not a healing
dance and and you know he’s like I just
I just want to ask us to take a pause I
don’t feel ready to fully have this
conversation with you right now and I’m
kind of like
okay you know and it’s like yes thank
you you’re you are right you are
actually correct that this is not going
well and I’m not resourced you’re not
resourced and that kind of holding of
like that’s another way to answer your
your question earlier of how like how a
man can really show up is sometimes not
actually being the puke bucket for my
entire experience that was actually
really important because I got to go sit
with myself and I got to go sit with the
parts that in that moment actually
wanted to hurt more than I than they
wanted to heal and that’s the truth and
so I got to be with that and feel and
like just move that through my body and
hold that in my nervous system we came
back and had an incredible efficient
beautiful healing conversation after
that and so you know there’s this idea
of that the you know being the you know
standing in the storm sometimes might
mean like I’m actually going to hold
this storm and not be a yes for this
right now in service of you yeah and
this for me is very third stage because
it’s in service of love it’s in service
of our relationship to do that and I
think if whoever is the most aware in
the moment has the the option and anyone
can call that either partner and I don’t
think that needs to be a masculine or
feminine thing but it’s like I’m going
to pause this in service of love but I
so so just to nerd out on the masculine
feminine thing a little bit is that he
or she who is most aware and most
capable of being a witness to what is
truly seeing what is happening is in the
masculine that could be a woman or a man
that could be anybody right he or she
who is most in the experience of emotion
is in the feminine and sometimes what
you described is in this in this
instance it was your partner but it
could have been you that was most aware
and so that’s I you know CU people kind
of want to know like okay like how do I
tease apart what is the masculine or
feminine in those experiences and in my
lexicon like awareness is the tool of
our masculines right you talk about you
know witness Consciousness like the
witness conscious is our masculine
whereas the gift of
vulnerability right or open-heartedness
or tears right that would be our
feminine and obviously what we want is
some kind of integrated experience of
both in those moments but you know
sometimes that’s tricky to do yeah I
think that’s really a key though is that
we are human before we are masculine
feminine true and I I feel there’s this
kind of spot that I know in working with
a lot of women that women can get stuck
where they’re like oh but isn’t that
masculine yeah you know if if I’m to
like hold a boundary with my partner
isn’t that masculine boundaries are
masculine and I’m just like oh my God
you know because it’s it’s human first
and and even what you’re saying if I
have an awareness that something is um
not healthy right now and I don’t bring
that then I’m not actually being
accountable to my uh Evolution and and
to love and so I I think that it’s
important to realize that both men and
women have masculine and feminine
polarity inside of us and a lot of what
we’re talking about is also you know men
who haven’t touched their inner feminine
yeah and then now we see this like
feminization of wh of of men and you
know it can get very mixed up but that
that’s an interesting road yeah no I
mean I would argue that that as whole to
become whole as a human we have to fully
flesh out our capacity our masculine
capacities and our feminine capacities I
see this a lot with men and a lot of men
who are reactive and even some in some
cases abusive because they have not
shephered it I would call their own
inner feminine your own inner child is
your own inner feminine uh doesn’t
matter gender and you know so I think
it’s important I I just like to use
those tools because it gives people
something to practice so for example if
I say you know I’m going to put you in a
pose where you’re going to have all
kinds of sensation moving through your
body and I’m just going to keep
reminding you to be to witness to your
own body and sens stion I’m training
them I’m training their masculine to be
with sensation so when I’m using those
terms and I’m saying this for the
audience as well like when I’m using
those terms I’m not talking man and
woman I’m talking about like how can we
access the specific practices that that
expand our capacity to both Express and
feel but also bring awareness and
structure and again you know these are
human human traits human qualities and
and I think some times the masculine
feminine thing gets so overused and
weaponized but but I also like it as a
to pinpoint certain traits I think it’s
really beautiful for that and I think it
I do think that overall it can get so
confusing for people because it’s like
different people will have different
teachings or different frames around
that different understanding so then
that word gets used and then people get
confused and so I think like something
that’s coming to me right now is just
around you know a lot of shamanic
traditions and earth-based traditions
work with the medicine wheel and the
medicine wheel you know just breaks
things up it’s like a compass for life
that allows us to look at where we’re
out of balance and where we’re in
balance and where there’s you know
whether we’re looking at the four
elements or the four directions or um
you know the seasons but especially for
instance with the or with the the mental
the physical the spiritual and emotional
so I think that there’s also a way that
the masculine the feminine the witness
the inner child the the the Divine Child
the wounded child the wounded masculine
the the healthy feminine you know just
all of those could also be looked at
almost like a like a compass like a
medicine wheel where we’re able to
identify those different archetypal
aspects of oursel and then be able to
start to look at where are we out of
balance you know I think what you guys
are just talking about around um you
know the I’ve been having a lot more men
come to me to work with me because i’
I’ve worked the with women so much that
I feel like I’ve become really really
good at helping the feminine come out of
women that had that part of them
suppressed and therefore we’re unhealthy
we’re literally get you know getting
sick and then seeing that aspect of of
men where they have not they have like a
really they’re really out of balance and
they have rejected their inner feminine
they haven’t touched her they haven’t
tasted her they haven’t felt their own
inner goddess they didn’t even know that
that was a part of them that they could
access and it’s so beautiful like when
when a a man for in is open to that are
starting to recognize that there’s a
part of him that he’s shut down for a
cultural reason or a societal reason or
a professional reason or because his you
know it wasn’t okay to cry or whatever
that is when he starts to want to awaken
that part there is such a deep and
profound journey and just opening up
that aspect of himself on a on a
creative level on a aliveness level on a
spiritual level and I just I I offer
this kind of from that standpoint of
like continuing to look at these things
as a map not as this is all that we are
not as like a div an inner division but
more at as an opportunity to see where
there where is there’s more balance to
be cultivated inside of ourselves that
allows us to be more whole and then not
over indexing just on masculine feminine
but also these other dimensions because
in a way like masculine feminine is on
is one that’s one plane of polarity but
then it does but then it doesn’t take
into consideration the maturation
process and the the 100% Jamie and I
like to say we’re 100% human and 100%
Divine and there’s like oh my gosh wait
how oh I’ve just was over indexing on my
Humanity so much that I forgot that I
can zoom out into the witness now is
that masculine or not I don’t know but
like there is some literally directional
energy that has me be able to lift out
of my very three-dimensional experience
to trust life more yeah and wow that is
like never GNA not be useful to be able
to find that I mean I think I think we
just need to say to women I need to say
to women I say this to a lot of women
that I work with like Embrace cultivate
and embrace your masculine like it’s so
crucial and just like you would say for
to men like really you know find your
inner feminine work with your inner
goddess you know embrace your inner
child because ultimately we need uh
wholeness you know that’s that’s
actually David would talk about the
second stage as being being the stage of
becoming whole human right like having a
healthy cultivated masculine and
feminine so that you can play in the
third stage because you can’t play in
the third stage if you’re not a whole
human and I think that’s the misstep
that you were talking about earlier
right that people just think like we
just want to get into the juicy [ __ ] you
know I I am I would love to you know
make this you know a little more
practical for people I like to often
give people inventories like how can you
track yourself right it’s given that
given just to say again to caveat like
we all have wounds we all you know have
Capa varying levels of capacity on how
to express those wounds and work with
those wounds and heal those wounds but
for people you know listening to this
you know how would they how how would
you suggest that they inventory
themselves or track themselves so that
they can start to bring more awareness
and hopefully skillfulness to working
with their wounds yeah I I’d love to
start on this one um you know something
that was coming up even
before is around
embodiment
and feeling our like not just feeling
our emotions but feeling the the
physical cues in our
body we especially in Western culture we
go so fast and we’re you know we’re
being bombarded right now by all these
Temptations to distract our energy so
it’s really not helping
um so we need to be extra aware right
now of of slowing down and I think at a
very basic level but a very missed level
is tracking our the physical cues
usually there’s some kind of
a cue in our stomach or in our heart or
our breath changes if something is right
or not right for us if something’s true
or not true and what I track a lot is
that even very functional people are
dissociating all the time yeah very true
all the time and it’s really easy to
override or skip a step or miss yourself
if you’re not in your body not present
and you’re going too fast and these
things are so basic and but they’re so
widespread and so common even in the
most like cultivated communities you
know it’s these things I think are very
practical as I I’m sure I have more but
I want to let Jamie sprinkle in but
that’s something that I feel is really
instrumental our bodies are an
instrument and they’re giving us cues
all the time but we’ll miss them some
you know ideally we’re tracking them
when they’re subtle and they’re not
literally turning into like a massive
sickness that then requires a whole
different level of attention but I
really do believe that a lot of the
sickness and the illness that we are
experiencing in culture is because there
was actually a lot of subtle more subtle
cues along the way that if we were able
to um
slow down pay attention tend to them
listen ask questions of our own body we
could have potentially interrupted them
getting to that point where that’s
there’s that flap and we have to stop
yeah yeah and I think that the you know
the the idea of training ourselves to
feel our own bodies is a very deep
almost endless lifelong practice that
most people just don’t track right and
there’s whole whole modalities you know
coming out now that are so based on just
micro attention and micro awareness to
your own body so I love that as a tool
that’s a really beautiful tool yeah I
also feel that something that Jess is
speaking to just to highlight is what I
would call embodied Alchemy where I
believe that all emotional material and
all Sensation that happens inside of our
body is shocky all of it is energy all
of it is chi all of it is life force
that could be potentially available
inside of our bodies and because there’s
Kinks and the hose and parts that are
shut down and exiled and locked away and
and then protectors and shells and
things in the way we don’t actually get
to receive all of the life force that is
moving moving through and one of my
practices that I do and teach and we
teach is the the practice.